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Those who knew about or foresaw Stoick's big scene
Topic Started: 14 Jun 2014, 05:26 (3900 Views)
Oneill5491
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Terrible Terror

Edit: Had to make the title more ambiguous since it's still visible to non-private sections of the forum.

Now I know a majority of you are too obsessed with this franchise that you couldn't pull yourself away from spoilers, reviews, or strong evidence that alluded to Stoick's death in the film. I was one of those people and wanted to know how your expectations of how his death would be portrayed on screen compared to what actually happened.

Strangely, Stoick's death was the scene I was looking forward to most since I knew it would likely have the most emotional weight out of any other scene in the film (for me anyway). However, what surprised me is how immediate his death was. What I envisioned was something much more heart-wrenchingly dramatic and drawn out where he would still hold onto consciousness while looking into the eyes of Hiccup and/or Valka and perhaps say something deeply profound yet simple. What came to mind for dramatic reference is the death of Capt. John Miller (Tom Hanks) in the ending scene of Saving Private Ryan:

Saving Private Ryan - Capt. John Miller Death Scene

Perhaps Dean thought about it but felt that a quiet and quick death was as far as they could push an unconventionally somber scene for a film like this. Kudos to him nonetheless for being this bold.

The traditional funeral pyre ceremony I was sure to see (especially after seeing the picture of all the characters holding bows with flaming arrows circulating on tumblr), but didn't expect that much dialogue to occur throughout the ceremony (albeit was good and meaningful dialogue by both Gobber and Hiccup). Listening to John Powell's track "Stoick's Ship" was enough to bring me to tears and I figured it would just be one of those mostly dialogue-free scenes where the music takes over (like Forbidden Friendship).

What also surprised me is that his death was not at the very end of the movie during your usual period of falling action. Instead, this movie had a double climax with his death scene serving as the first one which unfortunately led to a jarring yet unavoidable cut scene from the mournful funeral to the energetic high-speed scene of the gang riding the baby dragons back to Berk to finish the battle.

Overall, as I said, it was a bold and pivotal move by Dean to do this, especially considering the instrument of his death. It's apparent that it really paid off and the critics unanimously agree.

Anyway, very interested to know what you guys conjured up in your heads when you heard that Stoick would meet his end in HTTYD 2. Was it what you expected? More? Less?
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underwater-smiles
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wanna-be dragon trainer

I was definitely imagining something along the lines of what you were. I was expecting a crazy battle scene where Stoick would go down in battle, then a heartfelt moment between Stoick, Hiccup, and Valka, where his dying breath was something beautiful about family or protecting your own or something like that.
Nevertheless, dying to protect his son was also a very good (and IMO very appropriate for his character) way for him to die. He went out doing what he did best: protecting his own.
But, I would liked to have seen him go down with a sort of fight. He (literally) took a "bullet" of sorts for Hiccup, then just sort of...died.
The funeral scene killed me, though. I thought it was just the right amount of everything in that scene that made it so heart wrenching: the dramatic music mixed with little talking, plus all the characters looking so remorseful and tear stricken.

But overall, I think Stoick went out in the best way he could have, and I don't think he would have changed it at all if he could have.
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micromys
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Cathartes Aura

I knew about the scene (I desperately wanted to find out who died because I was so worried it was going to be Valka, and very relieved to find out it wasn't) and how it played out -- and was pleased with it, to be honest. I think I would have been less pleased if it had been drawn out. I think a friend of mine put it well:

"stoick’s death is horrible and extremely effective in part because (sorry, i’m referencing lion king again) much like mufasa’s death, it happens: suddenly. no inspirational speech; no dying words. there’s no meaningful argument between hiccup and stoick before it; there’s no meaningful anything, or at least nothing Purposefully Meaningful (you know, when a writer puts out dialogue that’s super trite and way too on the nose and Super Meaningful). it happens and that’s it. that’s it."

And so often, that's how death is. Someone is there, and then they're gone. To me, it makes a bigger impact because you don't really start to deal with it emotionally until later -- I know most of my friends didn't start crying until the funeral scene, because seeing his body burning was when you really began to process "he's really not coming back".
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Oneill5491
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Terrible Terror

micromys
14 Jun 2014, 10:03
so often, that's how death is. Someone is there, and then they're gone. To me, it makes a bigger impact because you don't really start to deal with it emotionally until later -- I know most of my friends didn't start crying until the funeral scene, because seeing his body burning was when you really began to process "he's really not coming back".
Very interesting and valid point. It would surprise me even more if that was truly the intent of the director/writers to incorporate unadulterated realism of a sudden and quick death.

But there's still something about me that really wanted to have my heart ripped out with added drama as I envisioned because I just didn't quite get the emotional effect I was looking for in either scene. It was almost like I wanted to vicariously die with him :blink: but it's hard to do when you can't actually identify the moments when a dying character loses hope, recognizes a an impending permanent severance to those he loves and finally passes away. While it may not be realistic, thematic deaths are much more powerful to me when the process is carried out as a dialogue (verbal or nonverbal) between the dying character and the living characters that have a bond to him/her.

Another reason is in part due to the common and confining expectations of family animated films; doing something incredibly dramatic that is rarely ever done in animation is multiplied by 100 fold over live action equivalents. That's why I was looking for an extreme because it's incredibly palpable over such a medium.

I'll have to watch the film again and reconsider the scene and my emotions.
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puxlit
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Better in Silhouette Form

Oneill5491
14 Jun 2014, 09:26
[...] Perhaps Dean thought about it but felt that a quiet and quick death was as far as they could push an unconventionally somber scene for a film like this. Kudos to him nonetheless for being this bold. [...]
I imagine it boiled down to practicality and tact; they didn't have the budget (in terms of screen time) to protract Stoick's death, and wanted to keep it suitable for younger audiences. From a story perspective, sudden deaths are good. They leave unresolved disputes in their wake; imagine all the things Hiccup would wish he could say, but no longer can. I was expecting him to wrestle with some form of remorse during Stoick's funeral, but that didn't eventuate.
Oneill5491
14 Jun 2014, 09:26
[...] What also surprised me is that his death was not at the very end of the movie during your usual period of falling action. [...]
If you read up on Blake Snyder's Beat Sheet (of which Dean DeBlois is a fan), you'll recognise Stoick's death as the "All is Lost" beat, and his subsequent funeral (where Hiccup monologues about purpose) as the "Dark Night of the Soul" beat. Pretty formulaic stuff.
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micromys
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Cathartes Aura

Oneill5491
14 Jun 2014, 10:37
micromys
14 Jun 2014, 10:03
so often, that's how death is. Someone is there, and then they're gone. To me, it makes a bigger impact because you don't really start to deal with it emotionally until later -- I know most of my friends didn't start crying until the funeral scene, because seeing his body burning was when you really began to process "he's really not coming back".
Very interesting and valid point. It would surprise me even more if that was truly the intent of the director/writers to incorporate unadulterated realism of a sudden and quick death.

But there's still something about me that really wanted to have my heart ripped out with added drama as I envisioned because I just didn't quite get the emotional effect I was looking for in either scene. It was almost like I wanted to vicariously die with him :blink: but it's hard to do when you can't actually identify the moments when a dying character loses hope, recognizes a an impending permanent severance to those he loves and finally passes away. While it may not be realistic, thematic deaths are much more powerful to me when the process is carried out as a dialogue (verbal or nonverbal) between the dying character and the living characters that have a bond to him/her.

Another reason is in part due to the common and confining expectations of family animated films; doing something incredibly dramatic that is rarely ever done in animation is multiplied by 100 fold over live action equivalents. That's why I was looking for an extreme because it's incredibly palpable over such a medium.

I'll have to watch the film again and reconsider the scene and my emotions.
See, to me there's something that hurts more about not getting dying dialogue -- because that dialogue is in itself is a kind of closure, a last chance to say the things you need to. But it's like how people always say -- treat the people you love like it's the last time you'll see them, because it might be. In the case of a sudden death, the grief can be sharpened by the fact that there wasn't that chance, so the survivors have to cope with thinking about all the things they could have/should have done/said before they lost their loved one. Just think about how often Hiccup is going to go back over the arguments he had with Stoick about becoming chief in the upcoming days (the unresolved disputes puxlit mentioned). I guess I just see it as adding another layer of complexity to all the things he's already struggling with. Of course, much of this is just a matter of personal taste. ^_^

And I also kind of enjoy the knowledge that Stoick went out with nothing but the thought of protecting his son in his head. It suited him, I think. (And honestly I was stuck by the contrast -- all the life and power and movement that constitutes Stoick's character going from 100% to absolute stillness. It's the same sort of thing that struck me as a kid when watching the aforementioned Lion King, haha -- complete with a character nudging the hand.) I think the extreme-ness of the scene here came more from the manner of the death, in the form of a friend landing the final blow (a choice I think was absolutely critical) than from the death itself, though.


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HideousZippleback
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[color=blue]I'm just here for Snotlout.
[/color]

The whole scene wasn't exactly what I imagined but I enjoyed DW's version a bit better than I thought I would.
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Eret
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....Son of Eret

I was expecting there would be a more obvious visual parallel between toothless trying to kill hiccup in this movie and when he had him pinned down in the woods in the first movie. That didn't really happen but its ok.

What shocked me though was how cruel they were about it, not only was he killed by Toothless, but like they literally JUST got the family back together and were talking about finally starting their new life as a complete family.... and then he died. I mean I knew he was going to die but I didn't think they were going to be so harsh about it. It was effed up. In a good way.

And then the whole funeral scene was a lot more blatant than I was expecting. Gobber with his whole sending off to valhalla speech and then when you see his feet poking out from his blanketed corpse. Like... damn. I was expecting to just see them firing arrows off to his ship and then seeing it on fire for a little. I didn't think it would go on for as long as it did or that they would be so detailed about it.
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Rocky Rose
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Deadly Nadder

I'm with alot of you here, I was expecting alot more to Stoick dying then the 1-2-3 punch and he's gone...

But- for me, Stoick's last scene and the funeral scene were done so well...I think the only reason I haven't cried over it yet, is because the scope of the sequel is just soo HUGE for me that it's still sinking in... and I think I need to see it again at some point soon..
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ToothlessNightFury
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Toothless

I had a feeling. Even before someone sent those annon spoilers on tumblr. Because my friends and I were talking about how DoB made it look like Alvin died (though we didn't believe it at all) and we got talking about how its a high chance Stoick might die in httyd 2, my friend and i thought it would be like this kind of


Hiccup is on his knees (like he actually was in the movie) devastated about his father's death. He doesn't know what to do. Valk and Astrid try their best to comfort him,

Hiccup doesn't know how he'll be chief or what he's going to do. Valka tells Hiccup that Stoick would be very proud of him and tells him "You have the heart of a Chief and the Soul of a Dragon"

this helps Hiccup to realize he is going to fight back against Drago and protect Berk, he rises up (like a dramatic way like in Lion King) and his rightful place as chief, Astird and Valka and Toothless at his side, The twins, Snotlout and Fishlegs are close behind him as well as Gobber. The rest of Berk is looking to them with pride.

_____

now I hadn't expected Toothless to get kindapped, so I'd imagined that TOothless would be at Hiccup's side as well but aside that I was actually pretty close :)

I felt proud of myself (guess my mind's really that creatie.)
Believe a Dragon Can Thaw A Frozen Heart Role Play Based of HTTYD and Frozen

Around here we don't look back. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we're curious...and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths.-Walt Disney

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