Eret

16 Jun 2014, 22:30

Quote:

 

I recall Hiccup also needing to be rescued. And I seem to recall quite a few characters who had little to no actual impact in the battle. Honestly I could argue Hiccup was one of them. I mean his whole plan was talking to the murderous raving lunatic, then trying to reason with his clearly mind controlled dragon so that his dad had to sacrifice himself to save his life. In fact, if we wanted to further extend that argument we could really say that other than the two Bewilderbeasts, no one really had that much of an impact. I don't mind having a discussion like this but if you want to find movies that trivialize female roles, this is not the movie to do it with.

You are... completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. Completely. I'm not saying she should have a big part just because she's a female. I'm saying they spent so much time on her and made her seem like she was going to be important and then its like she might as well have never shown up at all. I don't want her to have a bigger role in the movie as it is, because they already wrote themselves in to a corner enough with the ten different plots going on at once. a better solution would have been to rewrite it and put more of dragos stuff in the third movie if they really really wanted him, and finish what they started with valka in the second. The second should have been about valka and the third about him.

Skywalker

16 Jun 2014, 22:35

The problem with Valka is she is introduced as this incredible dragon master, but by the time Drogo gets there, she is reduced to the sidelines, only called upon to be someone Stoick must protect.

And...Yep...I'm a Nerd

16 Jun 2014, 22:40

Eret

16 Jun 2014, 22:30

Quote:

 

I recall Hiccup also needing to be rescued. And I seem to recall quite a few characters who had little to no actual impact in the battle. Honestly I could argue Hiccup was one of them. I mean his whole plan was talking to the murderous raving lunatic, then trying to reason with his clearly mind controlled dragon so that his dad had to sacrifice himself to save his life. In fact, if we wanted to further extend that argument we could really say that other than the two Bewilderbeasts, no one really had that much of an impact. I don't mind having a discussion like this but if you want to find movies that trivialize female roles, this is not the movie to do it with.

You are... completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. Completely. I'm not saying she should have a big part just because she's a female. I'm saying they spent so much time on her and made her seem like she was going to be important and then its like she might as well have never shown up at all. I don't want her to have a bigger role in the movie as it is, because they already wrote themselves in to a corner enough with the ten different plots going on at once. a better solution would have been to rewrite it and put more of dragos stuff in the third movie if they really really wanted him, and finish what they started with valka in the second. The second should have been about valka and the third about him.

I know and I'm saying I don't understand that complaint because NO ONE was all that important in the battle, regardless of how integral to the story they were.

And...Yep...I'm a Nerd

16 Jun 2014, 22:43

Skywalker

16 Jun 2014, 22:35

The problem with Valka is she is introduced as this incredible dragon master, but by the time Drogo gets there, she is reduced to the sidelines, only called upon to be someone Stoick must protect.

I'm sorry I'm a little confused, this is the point I tried to rebut in my first post and I was told I was off base.

valkasboy

16 Jun 2014, 22:47

Interesting stuff. I sympathize with everyone who feels that Valka doesn't get enough to do from the battle onwards, I agree. It's tough to squeeze these movies into ninety minutes and keep all the pieces balanced.

One thing I would like to caution people against, however, is laying all of this at Dean's doorstep. It's true, Dean's original vision for the film had Valka as a darker character, and Drago was not going to appear until film 3. But, I would not place the blame for the changes on Dean. He received many notes from multiple sources that he was obliged to deal with, and in my opinion he's a magician for being able to make a largely coherent movie considering the barrage of requests that he was deluged with. Some others may have thrown up their arms and quit, but he's a strong, patient, and insightful filmmaker and easily one of the best directors in the business.

I like Valka's flaws, it makes her interesting. She was always meant to represent the end of a path that Hiccup could go down, a mistaken path. Drago was a little like that too, in a different way. I think, as her animator, I would have preferred portraying her more like that, it would have been juicy! But early test audiences weren't liking it. Personally, I don't like the notion of relying on test screenings to shape your work, I think we should just make what we want to make.

We were tasked with the job of making her more likable, so her transition from feral back to civilized became a lot shorter which I thought was a bit of a shame. Some of my early tests on her were way more extreme, acting more like Matthew Modine in "Birdy"! There was a limit to how normal we could make her though, because if she's totally normal, it makes absolutely no sense for her to have stayed away, and I think many of you guys are feeling too close to that threshold. The last moment to go was right after Valka and Hiccup hug in the snow, she then said "Right, we'll start by rescuing Berk's dragons!" and a little argument ensued. It was a good moment for Hiccup as he realized that Valka's way, as much as Stoick's way, was not him.

I understand why the changes were made, I mean having your dad die, AND your mum revealed to be a psycho is a little much for one movie, well, for a general audience anyway. The hardcore fans probably would have liked it.

I adore this movie, and I adored working on Valka, it was challenging and satisfying, even with the changes to her character. I mean, in the old version I wouldn't have gotten to animate the kiss, and the Dancing and the Dreaming, and I'm not sure I would want to trade that.

Eret

16 Jun 2014, 22:48

And...Yep...I'm a Nerd

16 Jun 2014, 22:40

Eret

16 Jun 2014, 22:30

You are... completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. Completely. I'm not saying she should have a big part just because she's a female. I'm saying they spent so much time on her and made her seem like she was going to be important and then its like she might as well have never shown up at all. I don't want her to have a bigger role in the movie as it is, because they already wrote themselves in to a corner enough with the ten different plots going on at once. a better solution would have been to rewrite it and put more of dragos stuff in the third movie if they really really wanted him, and finish what they started with valka in the second. The second should have been about valka and the third about him.

I know and I'm saying I don't understand that complaint because NO ONE was all that important in the battle, regardless of how integral to the story they were.

And... thats not a good thing.

And...Yep...I'm a Nerd

16 Jun 2014, 22:43

Skywalker

16 Jun 2014, 22:35

The problem with Valka is she is introduced as this incredible dragon master, but by the time Drogo gets there, she is reduced to the sidelines, only called upon to be someone Stoick must protect.

I'm sorry I'm a little confused, this is the point I tried to rebut in my first post and I was told I was off base.

So do you agree or disagree that its a problem that she's pushed off to the sidelines and doesn't do anything? You're being unclear.

valkasboy

16 Jun 2014, 22:47

Interesting stuff. I sympathize with everyone who feels that Valka doesn't get enough to do from the battle onwards, I agree. It's tough to squeeze these movies into ninety minutes and keep all the pieces balanced.

One thing I would like to caution people against, however, is laying all of this at Dean's doorstep. It's true, Dean's original vision for the film had Valka as a darker character, and Drago was not going to appear until film 3. But, I would not place the blame for the changes on Dean. He received many notes from multiple sources that he was obliged to deal with, and in my opinion he's a magician for being able to make a largely coherent movie considering the barrage of requests that he was deluged with. Some others may have thrown up their arms and quit, but he's a strong, patient, and insightful filmmaker and easily one of the best directors in the business.

I like Valka's flaws, it makes her interesting. She was always meant to represent the end of a path that Hiccup could go down, a mistaken path. Drago was a little like that too, in a different way. I think, as her animator, I would have preferred portraying her more like that, it would have been juicy! But early test audiences weren't liking it. Personally, I don't like the notion of relying on test screenings to shape your work, I think we should just make what we want to make.

We were tasked with the job of making her more likable, so her transition from feral back to civilized became a lot shorter which I thought was a bit of a shame. Some of my early tests on her were way more extreme, acting more like Matthew Modine in "Birdy"! There was a limit to how normal we could make her though, because if she's totally normal, it makes absolutely no sense for her to have stayed away, and I think many of you guys are feeling too close to that threshold. The last moment to go was right after Valka and Hiccup hug in the snow, she then said "Right, we'll start by rescuing Berk's dragons!" and a little argument ensued. It was a good moment for Hiccup as he realized that Valka's way, as much as Stoick's way, was not him.

I understand why the changes were made, I mean having your dad die, AND your mum revealed to be a psycho is a little much for one movie, well, for a general audience anyway. The hardcore fans probably would have liked it.

I adore this movie, and I adored working on Valka, it was challenging and satisfying, even with the changes to her character. I mean, in the old version I wouldn't have gotten to animate the kiss, and the Dancing and the Dreaming, and I'm not sure I would want to trade that.

And...Yep...I'm a Nerd

16 Jun 2014, 22:43

1. Yes. It's a bad thing that I think has very little to do with representing a strong female character.

2. This is almost the same answer, but yes I do feel it was a problem, but not one unique to Valka.