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Most tragic, emotional, and dramatic character death in mainstream animation history?
Topic Started: 12 Jul 2014, 04:28 (2460 Views)
Oneill5491
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Terrible Terror

Always wanted to open up a discussion about this since so many people reference other past animated movies that have hard-hitting character deaths (e.g. Lion King, Bambi), but I haven't heard anyone debate which death scenes in animated movie history was best done.

Which carried the most emotional weight; had the best setup leading into it (i.e. audience investment into character); was the most surprising or untimely (most impactful to surrounding characters); best technical execution (layout, audio/visual effects, music); best use of character death to advance story and/or develop surrounding characters; best choice of style and method of death to enhance aforementioned elements.

Feel free to include any more points to debate over.

So you could probably guess that I firmly believe that HTTYD 2 has set the bar for how well a death scene can be written and utilized in an animated movie, but if you guys believe there's a better one, I'd love to hear your input.

I'll try to list off all the positive aspects to this death scene which makes it so great:
  • First and foremost: Death is of a very organic, mortal, human character. A human character's death adds tons more weight to the seriousness of the death since you value human life more than anything else and relate more to humans than you do animals or inanimate objects.
    This hits on what I think is this franchises' strongest suit: having the most organic feel and look in the history of animated productions. I'll probably start a new thread at some point to elaborate on this.
  • Unprecedented investment into building character before death. Seriously, how many animation writers/directors have had the balls to have the audience invest so much into learning about and loving this character to later kill them off after a full movie of character development, not to mention hours of screentime between all the shorts and TV episodes.
  • Heroic death, jaw dropping method of death used. Valka and Stoick said that "a chief protects their own." Well actions speak louder than words. And I think having the protagonist's best friend kill a loved one is unprecedented in animation (correct me if I'm wrong). Now I'm trying to think of live action films that have done this. Excellent way to bring tension into an otherwise perfect friendship. I was concerned when they announced a second HTTYD because I knew that Hiccup and Toothless' bond was the centerpiece of the franchise and I didn't know how they could make that character dynamic interesting since it appeared that you couldn't generate conflict between them. Yet they found the biggest wedge possible and drove it in between them.
  • Most tragic and untimely death with the heartwarming thought of reuniting the Haddock family and with Stoick reuniting with his presumed dead wife, lost for 20 years. A dagger was thrusted into that warm and fuzzy notion after about 15 minutes.
  • Impeccable technical execution with character death shown ON SCREEN. While other animated movies shy away from actually showing the character's body at the exact time of death or showing the cause of death inflicted upon them in plain view, often preferring to have the gruesome details implied within the audiences' imagination, in HTTYD 2, you see everything for full effect. And the surrounding characters see everything in full detail as well. Very bold move that adds more weight to the reality of death and how quickly it can come. Also, excellent use of cinematography throughout the entire scene, especially in the following funeral pyre scene with the lighting and framing of characters for reaction shots. But IMO, John Powell's score for those two scenes was the biggest technical asset for drawing your emotions out.
  • While most of us saw this coming (personally I thought this would occur in HTTYD 3), the passing of responsibility to Hiccup in a very Godfather-like scenario was powerful. These kind of growing pains in a becoming of age story is cinematic gold.
Anyway, that was a lot to process, but I'm just really proud of the guys at DreamWorks for not holding back and, as Dean put it, "going beyond what's immediately comfortable in animation."

Anyways, eager to hear how you guys think this movie stacks up against the rest that incorporated emotionally heavy death scenes. (Yay for morbid discussions)! :'(
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Cartoon Freak
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First of all, I would like to say that there's a lot that this death scene does right, largely in what it does differently. Having a good character be the one to kill the victim does add a new dynamic to it, and definitely adds to that initial drama.

But... (don't you know there's always a "but" with me?)

The drama is over so much more quickly than two of the three other most famous examples (which I will get into in a moment). There's basically the death and it's immediate aftermath, the (admittedly brilliant) funeral scene, and then it's over. Compare this to The Lion King or The Land Before Time, where the parent's death continues to hold emotional power over the protagonist and the audience for the rest of the film.

There are two basic reasons why this has to be the case. The first is that Hiccup's support network is huge. Seriously, he has six people he can count on to support him (the other five teens and Valka) and one guy who, despite their differences, is definitely on his side for the moment (Eret). Compare this to either TLK or TLBT, where the protagonist is left completely and utterly alone. It's actually most effective in The Lion King, where Simba is convinced that Mufasa's death is not only his fault, but that everyone, even his own mother, will hate him for it. It's also rather bizarre to note that Hiccup actually has a larger support network in this "darkest hour" than he did in the equivalent scene in the original, and then the whole mess was much more his fault as well. A coincidence, admittedly (separating Hiccup from the others would have required a lot of very specific writing to work, and would have eaten into screentime that was already crowded - even if you got rid of "The Dancing and the Dreaming", there would have been better things to do with those extra minutes), but an unfortunate one.

The second reason is that, in spite of what a lot of people have said, there's really nothing for which Toothless needs to be forgiven. He was under someone else's control, and thus can't be held responsible for his actions. Indeed, the movie beats us over the head with this point (a little too much, but really only by one line). Hypothetically, if Toothless had been in control when he killed Stoick (which would have required a completely different setup), then it would have been his fault, and thus Hiccup would have needed to forgive him. That would have added more dramatic weight, possibly enough to give it the edge over The Lion King and/or The Land Before Time.

Note that these aren't problems with the death sequence and associated scenes per se. These issues are all entirely organic with the setup. It's just a case of there being inherently less dramatic potential with this particular setup than there was with the setup in the aforementioned movies.

Oh, and HTTYD 2 does the parent death way better than Bambi, where it's almost a non-event. Seriously, you could have removed the death of Bambi's mother, and the plot would barely have changed. But the problems with that film are really not a matter to be discussed here.

So, in short, from best to worst, this is how I rank the famous parent deaths of animation:

1. The Land Before Time (great actual death, with plenty of long-lasting consequences, leaving the main character alone for quite some time and causing conflict with other characters).

2. The Lion King (longest-lasting consequences by far, and rock solid in all other areas)

3. HTTYD 2 (probably the best actual death by a slim margin, but the drama is over too quickly).

4. Bambi (the actual death is good, but it's pretty much a non-event in the context of the overall story).

Note that I haven't included Finding Nemo in there because it's less of a parent death and more of a wife death. That it is a different kettle of fish, so to speak.
Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18.

My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy.
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mr.k.c.w.
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[b](Above this title is a very dorky Hiccup.)
[/b]

To me, Stoick’s death is not that tragic nor dramatc, but emotional.

For me, to call something tragic, the event must be unforseenable. When Stoick charged to save Hiccup, ignoring that fact that I was already spoiled on that, it would be logical that Stoick would die then. It feels some sort of cliche now that when A rushes to B to save B, A would most likely at least get hurt, or in most cases, fatally injured. It’s not that tragic. Though I may be influced by the spoiler first.

It’s not too dramatic either, considering that the entire duration from Stoick getting killed to Hiccup deciding to go back to Berk is just about 5 minutes, and all the drama I see on screen is Hiccup telling Toothless to get away and everyone cried during Stoick’s funeral. Maybe I missed something but that is not that dramatic too me.

Now, for the emotional part. Stoick’s death hit the ball out of the park with this one. I truly, truly wanted to cry every time when I see Stoick getting killed. It’s really, really just sad to see a character that you’ve known so well just dies right in front of you, especically if you watched every single thing that comes before HTTYD2. Right now as I am typing this, I’m actually wanted to cry because talking his death again made me depressed. That’s how emotional it was. The emotional impact of Stoick’s death still affects me. They really did a wonderful job at persenting that.

I can’t say for other animation movies, because to be honest, I haven’t watched a lot movies so I really can’t think of an example that outdid HTTYD2.
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dorcas18
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Dragon Egg

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12 Jul 2014, 12:59
First of all, I would like to say that there's a lot that this death scene does right, largely in what it does differently. Having a good character be the one to kill the victim does add a new dynamic to it, and definitely adds to that initial drama.

But... (don't you know there's always a "but" with me?)

The drama is over so much more quickly than two of the three other most famous examples (which I will get into in a moment). There's basically the death and it's immediate aftermath, the (admittedly brilliant) funeral scene, and then it's over. Compare this to The Lion King or The Land Before Time, where the parent's death continues to hold emotional power over the protagonist and the audience for the rest of the film.

There are two basic reasons why this has to be the case. The first is that Hiccup's support network is huge. Seriously, he has six people he can count on to support him (the other five teens and Valka) and one guy who, despite their differences, is definitely on his side for the moment (Eret). Compare this to either TLK or TLBT, where the protagonist is left completely and utterly alone. It's actually most effective in The Lion King, where Simba is convinced that Mufasa's death is not only his fault, but that everyone, even his own mother, will hate him for it. It's also rather bizarre to note that Hiccup actually has a larger support network in this "darkest hour" than he did in the equivalent scene in the original, and then the whole mess was much more his fault as well. A coincidence, admittedly (separating Hiccup from the others would have required a lot of very specific writing to work, and would have eaten into screentime that was already crowded - even if you got rid of "The Dancing and the Dreaming", there would have been better things to do with those extra minutes), but an unfortunate one.

The second reason is that, in spite of what a lot of people have said, there's really nothing for which Toothless needs to be forgiven. He was under someone else's control, and thus can't be held responsible for his actions. Indeed, the movie beats us over the head with this point (a little too much, but really only by one line). Hypothetically, if Toothless had been in control when he killed Stoick (which would have required a completely different setup), then it would have been his fault, and thus Hiccup would have needed to forgive him. That would have added more dramatic weight, possibly enough to give it the edge over The Lion King and/or The Land Before Time.

Note that these aren't problems with the death sequence and associated scenes per se. These issues are all entirely organic with the setup. It's just a case of there being inherently less dramatic potential with this particular setup than there was with the setup in the aforementioned movies.

Oh, and HTTYD 2 does the parent death way better than Bambi, where it's almost a non-event. Seriously, you could have removed the death of Bambi's mother, and the plot would barely have changed. But the problems with that film are really not a matter to be discussed here.

So, in short, from best to worst, this is how I rank the famous parent deaths of animation:

1. The Land Before Time (great actual death, with plenty of long-lasting consequences, leaving the main character alone for quite some time and causing conflict with other characters).

2. The Lion King (longest-lasting consequences by far, and rock solid in all other areas)

3. HTTYD 2 (probably the best actual death by a slim margin, but the drama is over too quickly).

4. Bambi (the actual death is good, but it's pretty much a non-event in the context of the overall story).

Note that I haven't included Finding Nemo in there because it's less of a parent death and more of a wife death. That it is a different kettle of fish, so to speak.
Just a little thought here:

Parent death in TLBT, TLK and Bambi occurred during juvenile period (helpless, vulnerable, lots of "crying" and "help" scene...easy to stirr up dramatic/emotional flares??); as for httyd2, it happened during young adulthood ,which is something different...

I did appreciate the way Dean wrapped up the death scene with a tradition viking funeral and the heroic reflection with enough said, instead of (although i think he could have done that if he wanted to) lingering too much on the emotions of death. It really showed the toughness and "keep pressing on" theme in the film ("we're vikings, its an occupational hazard")



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Cartoon Freak
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Deadly Nadder

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Parent death in TLBT, TLK and Bambi occurred during juvenile period (helpless, vulnerable, lots of "crying" and "help" scene...easy to stirr up dramatic/emotional flares??); as for httyd2, it happened during young adulthood ,which is something different...

I did appreciate the way Dean wrapped up the death scene with a tradition viking funeral and the heroic reflection with enough said, instead of (although i think he could have done that if he wanted to) lingering too much on the emotions of death. It really showed the toughness and "keep pressing on" theme in the film ("we're vikings, its an occupational hazard")
I agree with the basic sentiment here, but in the end, having it all be over and done with so quickly does lessen the emotional impact. It's just a case of some stories naturally lacking the emotional punch of others.
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For me, to call something tragic, the event must be unforseenable.
Actually, one of the defining features of the genre of tragedy (and thus the idea's use within other genres) is predictability. Pick a Shakespearean tragedy (or, if you really don't want to, recall Star Wars Episode III - while it's not nearly as well-written, it is very much a tragedy), and you'll see how pretty much every decision the characters make sends them down that path towards calamity.

In that regard, Stoick's death is tragic, because anyone with the slightest bit of genre savvy can see it coming a mile away, and those who don't would still know as soon as they see him running to Hiccup's aid that it's not going to end well.
Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18.

My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy.
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Astrid
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Gronckle

Is this only about animated movies or are we talking about animation in general?
If it's not only about movies then I think a lot of cartoons and animes can enter in this debate and I would like to nominate Full Metal Alchemist
But if it's only about movies then perhaps you can change the title of the topic and add movies to it.

Idk if anyone has seen Grave of the fireflies but this is a very heavy/emotional movie where the death of one of the main characters is perhaps very well done. Nevertheless I must confess I haven't watched this film in its entirety, I just couldn't and up until now I don't feel emotional prepared for it, but if ever someone has watched it it would be nice to include it in this debate
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thenightandthefury
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Gronckle

I would have to agree, the land before time takes the cake for the most emotional and tragic death. Yes, the character was just a kid when his mom died, but it doesn't make it any less heartbreaking. and the fact that it continues to affect the entire movie keeps the tragedy running through the entire film. As a kid, land before time was one of the first movies I clung to, and I downright bawled every time I saw the movie. Even watching a land before time movie when I was a teenager, where Little Foot sings a song about his mother called "Always there." 24 years old and I still tear up to it. If you still don't think land before time takes the cake, think back to Little foots mother dying and watch the scene "always there." By the time Little foot sings, you'll probably have tears in your eyes.

Anywho, second is lion king. That made me cry so bad, but only during Mufasa's death, while the land before time had me tearing up the entire movie.

Third would be HTTYD 2, because I teared up when Valka and Stoick reunited, his death was predictable and I didn't tear up at that moment or afterwards because I could see it coming. It was more of just a sad shock and wishing it somehow wasn't true.

All of these are great movies, but one other great movie that caused me to tear up that had a death in it, but the emotional part hit later was the fox and the hound. His mother dies in the beginning, but its not till he is left in the forest alone and she is driving away that it really hits you that he is completely alone and has no one left in the world, if only for that moment. Just thought that should be mentioned! It handled the death in a completely different way then any of these films did, yet still made most people bawl their eyes out at some point.

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puxlit
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dorcas18
12 Jul 2014, 14:29
[...]
Just a little thought here:
Parent death in TLBT, TLK and Bambi occurred during juvenile period (helpless, vulnerable, lots of "crying" and "help" scene...easy to stirr up dramatic/emotional flares??); as for httyd2, it happened during young adulthood ,which is something different...
[...]
Cartoon Freak
12 Jul 2014, 14:41
[...]
I agree with the basic sentiment here, but in the end, having it all be over and done with so quickly does lessen the emotional impact. It's just a case of some stories naturally lacking the emotional punch of others.
[...]
I'm not sure if these comparisons are fair. TLBT, TLK, and Bambi used death to give their protagonists a reason to set off on their journey, and spur them into the second act. Contrast this with HTTYD 2, where Stoick's death is designed to give Hiccup a moment between battles for soul-searching, and so draw the second act to a close. Whereas the first three films have ample time to explore death and its effects, HTTYD 2 doesn't. If there are any animated films in which a significant character dies towards the end of the second act, they may serve as fairer candidates for comparison.
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Cartoon Freak
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Deadly Nadder

In the end, I for one am purely talking about the level of drama, emotion, etc. involved with the death, regardless of whether or not the comparisons are fair.

Though if you do want a fairer comparison, go with any of the fantasy movies where the mentor dies (so pretty much all of them), since that tends to happen around the end of the second act. Admittedly, there is a slight difference between parents and mentors, but I'd say they're sufficiently close together that a fair comparison can be made.

I can't think of an animated example off the top of my head, but I'll comment again if I think of any.
Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18.

My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy.
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Polychrome
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Hatchling

It's really not all that unusual for a tragic death to occur in animation. The usual suspects from the Disney side of things have already been brought up. Don Bluth movies have already been covered. In terms of deaths that are not of a "mentor" character, there's Jet from Avatar, and a more recent example would be Sachi (and guild) from Sword Art Online.

Shall we bring up video games? Whatever you want to make of that, they *are* animation. And there's certainly enough death to go around. (The stereotype of RPGs starting with one's village being destroyed had to come from somewhere... Oh, and don't get me started on the ditz of FF7.)

But to be frank, and as much as I hate to put animation in the "for kids" boat for *any* reason, deaths are actually pretty common in children's stories and literature. The difference is that rather than being an ending, tragedy is often used to set the stage for a bigger story. (Think of the "video game" example.)

Obviously Dreamworks has some big plans. But I don't think they intended us to dwell on Stoick's death for very long. While it is late in the game, it still gives the feel that there's some big challenges ahead.
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