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| Golden Globe goes to How To Train Your Dragon 2 | |
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| Topic Started: 16 Jan 2015, 02:35 (10912 Views) | |
| Steve | 16 Jan 2015, 02:35 Post #81 |
Hatchling
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Why? It's a good discussion about the evidence and reasons why HTTYD2 should or should not have received the award. |
| Night Fury | 16 Jan 2015, 03:09 Post #82 |
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Terrible Terror
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Agreed. It seems like whenever there is a good discussion on this forum the moderators are pressured to shut it down because certain people get offended very easily. Unfortunately, that has the effect of turning this place into a fan club rather than a discussion forum (but maybe that's what some people want it to be). The post on the last page about groupthink pretty much nailed it. |
| Berknation | 16 Jan 2015, 03:16 Post #83 |
[color=red] [b]Titan Wing [/b] [/color] 
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It is alright to discuss things. You are allowed to state your opinion. But please do not belittle others in doing so. Also- the discussion you are sharing now is not so much about the topic thread it is under. Just a warning. |
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| DarthBacon | 16 Jan 2015, 04:30 Post #84 |
Gronckle
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Exactly. The point of this thread was to be glad that this movie got a golden globe. I don't mind discussing the flaws of this movie, but i feel you should atleast start a new thread for it. Simply saying HTTYD 2 did not deserve this award when the whole purpose of this thread was something else entirely is a bit rude. |
  
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| Steve | 16 Jan 2015, 05:26 Post #85 |
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Hatchling
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Wot? This thread was meant to exclude anyone disagreeing with HTTYD2's merits? |
| BirdyTheBrave | 16 Jan 2015, 06:41 Post #86 |
I like big books and I cannot lie.
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Are we done arguing yet? Or do we need another warning from a moderator? A massive congratulations to the cast and crew of Dragons 2! You all truly deserve this, and we are all very proud of you and our darling franchise  .Can't wait for the third instalment! |
Update guys: It's party time with Joe.
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| Cartoon Freak | 16 Jan 2015, 12:24 Post #87 |
Deadly Nadder
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This is a topic about HTTYD 2 winning a Golden Globe, so it makes sense to have discussions within the topic about that. One obvious discussion related to that is the question of whether or not HTTYD 2 deserved to win that award. In order to have this discussion, one needs to compare it to other films that were nominated for that award (or potentially, films that were eligible that weren't nominated). Now obviously, there are other discussions one can have regarding this little fact. Other people are welcome to have those (it's not like I could stop you, even if I wanted to), and if I have something to add, then I will probably do so. However, that does not mean that the discussion I happen to be involved in is somehow invalid under the topic. And really, what would be the point of a thread that just exists for celebration without any sort of discussion? If you want to dispense bland congratulations and declarations of your emotional state, then just post them on the topic on the main site, or on Dreamworks' Twitter account. Those comments would have about as much discussion value as the average tweet. 1. On the contrary, the reaction to the film lasts, on some level, for the rest of one's life (heck, people will be complaining about The Phantom Menace until that entire generation is dead, with good reason). Now I don't know about you, but I plan on living until well after 2020. So it stands to reason that my reaction to HTTYD 3 will probably last considerably longer than my feelings in the buildup to it. 2. Okay, so you were optimistic about HTTYD 2, and it didn't disappoint. This led to some positive feelings on your part. Fair enough. But just consider what would have happened if you had been expecting HTTYD 2 to be bad. The actual film would have blown you away so completely that it would have made the joy you feel now seem like a quiet chuckle by comparison. Meanwhile, if I'd been expecting HTTYD 2 to be as good as the first film, then I would be a lot angrier than I am right now. Believe me, I've been there, done that, and know. 1. Okay, let's assume for the sake of argument that HTTYD 3 will be exactly the same, regardless of whether or not HTTYD wins the Oscar. If that is the case, then what good things for HTTYD will result from HTTYD 2 winning the Oscar? 2. In the end, the creators are only human (I hope, though if DeBlois was a robot, then that would be some very impressive AI). It's not that they would stop caring about making a good film, it's that they would stop seeing the flaws in their own work. I don't think George Lucas stopped caring about his movies, but he certainly wasn't able to see some glaring flaws in his work. 3. I don't think there's a person alive who wouldn't care about their critically acclaimed work being passed over for an Oscar nomination to a film that did not get nearly as much praise (I'm talking about the Boxtrolls here, not HTTYD 2). Yeah, people put on a front of not caring (and Lord did it better than most), because that's the easiest way to be a good loser. But it's still a front. 1. Sequels are not a risk They're easy money, because they have a built-in audience. That's why Hollywood makes such a ludicrous number of them. Making a brand new story with all new characters and settings is a risk. 2. At the most basic level, stories are about conflicts (it is worth noting here that personal and interpersonal issues are forms of conflict), If all those conflicts are resolved (whether pleasantly or unpleasantly for the protagonist), then the story is over. In HTTYD, all these conflicts are resolved. Vikings and dragons on Berk are at peace, Hiccup's relationship with his father is healed, Hiccup is respected by all in the village, he gets the girl, and he has his best friend safe and sound. There isn't even a vague threat on the horizon like every first movie for a superhero uses to justify a sequel. As a result, DeBlois had to pull conflict out of nowhere just to have a plot. All things considered, the conflicts aren't bad, but they're hardly necessary or justified. Yes, in the end, the film was good, but it's not justified, because Dreamworks could have used that talent to tell an original (in the sense of not being a sequel, adaptation, remake, or reboot) story, rather than an obvious cash grab. I'm criticising HTTYD 2 on a HTTYD website. There's a huge difference. You might as well say that no one should criticise The Land Before Time XIII (yes, they made that many) on a Land Before Time website. It's entirely possible to like a film while having issues with its sequels (or with the original, for that matter). As proof, I offer this statement, which is as true as any I make, and more true than some: How to Train Your Dragon is my favourite film. Of all time. Bar none. That's why I care so much about the sequel, and why its flaws anger me. If I didn't love the original so much, I wouldn't care all that much about the flaws in its sequel. For example, I don't care nearly as much about the flaws in The Dark Knight Rises, because I had no particular attachment to The Dark Knight. 1. Accepting two paycheques and giving Katzenberg more of what he wanted anyway is neither courageous nor clever. Well, unless DeBlois had a particular desire to see a combined look of confusion and unbridled glee on Katzenberg's face, in which case, I'm sure he accomplished his mission. 2. Can't a great, successful film just be a great, successful film? Why does everything that makes a mark at the box office have to become a franchise, even when there is literally no artistic need for it? Can't the people who worked on it just take the creative principles that made the film great and successful, and apply it to other films? The lesson that should have been taken from HTTYD's success is that great, mainstream movies make money. Make more great, mainstream movies, and you will make lots of money. How many times does this need to be proven? 3. True, if it wasn't for DeBlois' decision, we would have gotten a completely different HTTYD 2. For all we know, it would have been better. We simply don't know. Regardless, I would certainly have had more respect for DeBlois himself if he had taken a stand and decided that a great, self-contained film should be just that. You know, I'm just going to go for an easy target: are you really saying that HTTYD 2 improved on the pacing? Most people I've seen will at least admit that the pacing of the sequel was very rushed at times. On the other hand, the first film's pacing is what really raises it from being a good, enjoyable film to a great one. The story's been done more times than I would care to count, but rarely so well-paced, if ever. The short answer that would work for pretty much any film is that an Oscar win would increase the probability of its sequel being worse. However, a sequel to The Lego Movie is pretty much doomed to fail anyway, for reasons that are specific to that movie, and thus not relevant here. |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
| DarthBacon | 16 Jan 2015, 15:25 Post #88 |
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Gronckle
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Thanks for your last comment. It certainly helped a lot. Like yourself, HTTYD is my favourite film of all time. Bar none. Part of that is why I am so glad that it finally got this much recognition atleast when everyone were saying that its going to lose out to the other nominees. If HTTYD 2 had been ridiculously bad, then it would have been a completely different issue. I, for one, would not be so glad about this award. But HTTYD 2 turned out to be good. Better than what i expected initially atleast. Trust me, I too have a lot of issues with HTTYD 2. In fact, if a thread opened up about its flaws, I would probably be one of the first persons to bring up the things that I totally hate about the sequel and wish those were done way way better. But, the things that I wanted to see improved in the sequel, and pretty much the major things I care about in this franchise - the soundtrack, and Hiccup's and Toothless's arc - were definitely better than the original. That's why I still root for this film. So yeah. We both had different expectations from this movie. Mine were fulfilled. Yours were not. So i guess what you are saying about this movie not deserving to win is fair. |
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| SilaNightFury | 17 Jan 2015, 00:22 Post #89 |
Lemon Guru and Cloudjumper Fangirl~
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Hey, hey, hey, Cartoon Freak  He made his own |
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| Cartoon Freak | 17 Jan 2015, 01:36 Post #90 |
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Deadly Nadder
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An award for HTTYD 2 is not an award for the first film, nor should it be. If you're going to give an award to a sequel, then it should be purely for the sequel's merits, with some leeway allowed in making the assumption that the audience knows the story of the first film (to use the immediately obvious example from HTTYD 2, the audience doesn't inherently need to be told or shown how Hiccup and Toothless got their respective prosthetics, though as it stands it was important to one scene). In other words, HTTYD 2 winning an award in no way compensates for any injustices regarding the first film's reception. 1. I very much disagree that those two aspects being better in the sequel. Both are done very well, without a doubt (and I agree that the score should have been nominated), but not as well as the original. With the score, it's mostly a problem of how it synchs to what's on screen. The second film still does it well, but the first film did it darn-near perfectly (when listening to the soundtrack for the first film, I can figure out how the music goes with the film all the way through - I can't do this for the second). In regards to the Hiccup/Toothless relationship, it is again done very well, but if you're like other big HTTYD 2 fans in this regard, you're probably focused on the forgiveness angle. I kind of hate to tell you this, but there wasn't anything to forgive. Don't get me wrong, the scene that goes with "Toothless Found" is a great scene (probably my favourite scene in the movie, my cheesy declarations of "Friendship is Magic!" notwithstanding), but it's not really part of an arc to the same extent that every one of their scenes in the original film was. I suppose it's rather like an adage I read somewhere about romance stories: it's easy to write about people falling in love, it's hard to write about people who are already in love. It's a similar thing with friendship, really. 2. Actually my expectations for this film were well and truly exceeded. I expected it to be terrible, but it turned out to be good. My comments are largely a combination of telling it how it is, and a reaction to people overrating a film. That's really not the same, in any way. If nothing else, the trophy's really not the point (well, outside of being worth some money if the Oscar trophies are made of real gold). It's just a symbol of what the award actually is: an acknowledgement from the most prestigious film awards organisation that your film was the best in [category x] that year. If I hypothetically won an Oscar (let's stretch our imaginations for this one), and then a burglar stole the trophy, I wouldn't care (well, not for the trophy, anyway), because I would still know that I won it, as would everyone else who cares about such things. |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
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