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| Toothless' Tail? | |
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| Topic Started: 13 Jun 2018, 20:30 (6212 Views) | |
| jeremykuan | 13 Jun 2018, 20:30 Post #11 |
Dragon Egg
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From what Dean’s said so far about Grimmel’s being intelligent and cunning, I think the threat of Grimmel will be more than a simply physical one. Of course I’m sure that he presents a certain level of physical threat as well, especially taking into account the fact that he’s hunted all night furies. In fact, I’m pretty sure Toothless’s lightning powers are a result of him needing to overcome the physical threat that Grimmel poses. (Plus, I just have this feeling that this whole villain thing is much more complex than it seems in the trailer) I will however agree that taking away his tail fin does remove the relatability a bit. We root for Hiccup and Toothless because we love rooting for underdogs. Although I’m wondering if by this point we’d root for Hiccup and Toothless even if they turn out to be literally Norse gods? It’s relying heavily on the character development of the previous films to progress the relationship without alienating the audience. Also, I 100% agree that while the weakness is there, not every story has to revolve completely around it. And yes, HTTYD2 got it perfectly. |
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"There were dragons...when I was a boy. Where they went, only a few know. Our story changed the world forever.” -Hiccup Horrendous Haddock III 
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| Cartoon Freak | 14 Jun 2018, 08:21 Post #12 |
Deadly Nadder
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Hmm, better whip out the old quote tags: 1. From my recollection, DeBlois also said that Valka was feral. That was not the case (even from what I've seen of the much more interesting earlier draft of HTTYD 2's script, it wasn't the case). I would take any claim he makes about an even slightly subjective aspect of one of his characters with all of the salt in the universe. A simple, concrete fact that he states can be assumed to be true unless proven otherwise. As an example, in that same interview, he explained the gist of how the Light Fury's disappearing act works. That's probably true, and will most likely be explained and/or shown in the film itself. But as for Grimmel being unusually intelligent or cunning? I'll believe that when he actually enacts a plan that I can't see coming a mile away. 2. "Physical threat" was terrible wording on my part, and I apologise for that. What I mean isn't that Grimmel is going to go and just punch a dragon in the face, or something similar. He'll have strategy (or what passes for strategy in the average movie) on his side, of course. What I meant is that Grimmel's goal is ultimately physical in nature. He's not trying to turn the world against dragons (like Mildew was for much of Riders of Berk). He's not trying to psychologically break Hiccup (sure, if Grimmel succeeded, it would have an effect along those lines, but that would be a fringe benefit at most). He's trying to kill Toothless, because he wants to kill all the Night Furies. Simple, physical goal that ultimately will be denied in a simple, physical manner. Sure, there will likely be a cunning plan (or what passes for one) of some description to get to the point where Hiccup and Toothless will defeat him. In the end, however, that defeat will not come through some grand debate or a Magic of Friendship speech (that's a completely different animated franchise featuring dragons), but rather through shooting/stabbing/whatever the guy and or his weapons/ships/army/whatever. And for the record, there's nothing wrong with that. It's the bread and butter of action-adventure storytelling (which HTTYD 2 at least falls fairly squarely into, and thus the third film likely will as well). But it does mean that, to get back to the original point, if you remove or greatly nullify Toothless' physical weakness, then the victory is cheapened. I wouldn't get your hopes up on that. I seem to recall people saying similar things about Drago, and we got a villain who was somehow simultaneously boring and ludicrous. And again, if the rest of the story works (which it didn't entirely in HTTYD 2, but I'm a little more hopeful for this one), that's a minor problem at worst. We seem (and correct me if I'm wrong) to be in agreement on the main point, with the main conflict being about the extent of the problem. In that regard, I would like to state for the record the extent of my issues with Toothless being able to fly by himself: This is less something that makes me want to vomit violently (*cough*Valka*cough*) and more something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Give me something good for dessert (or whatever precise ending the movie gives us), and I'll probably be fine with the whole experience. But I'm definitely criticising it in the review. I hope that clears things up a little. |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
| jeremykuan | 14 Jun 2018, 09:33 Post #13 |
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Dragon Egg
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I'm actually hoping we don't get a defeat at all. I always thought we'd see the dragons retreating to the Hidden World as a result of them not being able to defeat the villains out there who don't believe that dragons and humans can coexist peacefully. If that were the ending, it'd show that even with the physical weakness removed and Hiccup having everything at his disposal (the military power of Berk's dragons and vikings, the support of his gang, etc.), he'd still have no choice but to go down the road of separation. I know the second film is far more divisive than the first, but I really did love Valka. Honestly, nothing in the HTTYD movies make sense on paper. How is the audience even able to forgive Astrid so quickly and ship them together immediately? The Light Fury romance and Grimmel are also things that just seem silly when put into writing. But IMO, this franchise has brilliant execution and the moment I saw Stoick fall in love with Valka again was the moment that all my doubts about her went away. Maybe I love the character of Stoick too much and it might be lazy storytelling, but my gut tells me to love Valka as a character simply from Stoick's reaction to her. The reason I'm not so worried about the third movie is because the trailers and marketing for the first two movies weren't really able to portray them well (honestly when I saw the trailer for the first movie, I vowed to never watch such a crappy film). Maybe that's why we're getting so many different official synopses across different websites, the marketing teams behind these movies simply don't know what to do. |
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"There were dragons...when I was a boy. Where they went, only a few know. Our story changed the world forever.” -Hiccup Horrendous Haddock III
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| Cartoon Freak | 14 Jun 2018, 12:08 Post #14 |
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Deadly Nadder
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Okay, there's two reasons that is not going to happen: 1. It's a mainstream animated movie. The villain is going to lose. No studio would ever allow otherwise. The villain can certainly do a lot of damage on the way out (and that could easily be part of what necessitates the dragons leaving, perhaps combined with the simple knowledge that there will always be another Grimmel or Drago to be a threat. 2. Remember this line from the trailer? "Then I will destroy every thing you love." Now we don't know the exact context behind this line, but that's not said by a man who's going to let someone get away with taking away his prized last kill. If Hiccup ruins Grimmel's plans by sending Toothless somewhere where the villain can never get to him, then Grimmel will set himself a new goal, one which he pretty clearly stated above. And in this scenario, Hiccup just removed his tribe's best defences, and they supposedly couldn't beat the guy with said defences. Hiccup, his friends, his remaining family, and everyone with whom he has ever been on friendly terms will be murdered, brutally, probably in front of his eyes. There is no other possible outcome. Now of course, any victory our heroes achieve can be pyrrhic, but Grimmel will lose, for in-universe and out-of-universe reasons. Okay, I'm going to hold off on the epic Valka rant, because it's grossly off-topic (if I see a topic in the HTTYD 2 section on her, it will probably be the only push I need). Instead, I will simply say this: You can write a better character than Valka. So can I. So can anyone I've seen on this forum. Sure, if you or I created a hundred characters, we would probably come up with some who are worse than her, but the vast majority would be considerably better. I will briefly discuss two things you mentioned that you seem to think are problems, but are incredibly easy to resolve. In the "Romantic Flight" sequence of the original film, Astrid is shown a side to both dragons and to Hiccup that she had never seen before. It makes perfect sense that this would cause her to reevaluate her opinions on both. As for the actual romantic side of things, when you combine an extreme situation with teenage hormones, that's more than enough to justify a crush (which, in the context of the first movie, is all it is). Toothless wants sex, and the Light Fury is easily the most suitable sexual partner that he has encountered in the franchise so far. As for the Light Fury herself, she seems resistant to Toothless' advances at first, but will likely come round in a fairly sensible fashion. Given Grimmel seems to show a particular interest in hunting Night Furies, it's likely that he enjoys the thrill and sport of it more than hunting any other dragon (which he might either still enjoy, just do for work, or some other reason). Now maybe the reasons in the finished film will be different, but I just provided perfectly sensible explanations that don't require anyone to act out-of-character or completely unlike any human being in the history of anything. |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
| Dragondog | 14 Jun 2018, 22:29 Post #15 |
Female Winged Wonder
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Okay, that isn't how I would've worded it, but... 
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| Cartoon Freak | 14 Jun 2018, 22:33 Post #16 |
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Deadly Nadder
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I like to keep explanations simple when I can (because I often can't). |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
| Lovaasnah | 18 Jun 2018, 20:11 Post #17 |
Hatchling
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No worries, I know it is not a flash back. I got some high quality photos of the trailer and could see his tail fin was artificial. I forgot to reply when I learned this about a week ago. Oops, sorry. I was just hoping it wasn't Toothless because I don't like the recycled material from GotNF and the idea that his disability may just be shoved under the rug now. |
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| Cartoon Freak | 19 Jun 2018, 06:42 Post #18 |
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Deadly Nadder
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In regards to Gift of the Night Fury, I hope that they at least address the issue that Toothless already rejected a self-controlled prosthetic tail fin. I know the average moviegoer won't have seen that short, but most (if not all) of the fans have, and I think a line or two addressing the issue, explaining how this is a different situation, would be in order. |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
| Dragonrider's Fury | 19 Jun 2018, 08:32 Post #19 |
Skrill
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Agreed. |
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| Lovaasnah | 20 Jun 2018, 01:27 Post #20 |
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Hatchling
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They actually do address that! Moderate spoilers as this is from the footage shown at Annecy film festival. As Hiccup is working on the tail, Astrid looks at his drawings and states how somebody (Hiccup) didn't get any sleep. She then goes on to comment that Toothless rejected his first tail. Hiccup retorts by saying Toothless didn't have a reason to use it back then but now he does. |
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