kc7gr

30 Jun 2015, 17:45

It came as no surprise to me to see Dreamworks end their relationship with Cartoon Network. What did surprise (and disappoint) me was seeing that DeBlois and Co. Still don't seem to have gotten it through their heads that quality writing and storytelling is just as (if not more) important than eye-popping CGI.

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In short, the first 'Dragon' movie left me, literally, breathless as I walked out of the theater. Sadly, the second movie had the opposite effect. I'll post more about it in the appropriate forum later, but suffice to say the second film felt like DeBlois and his team had abandoned everything they did right in the first one. I left the theater feeling betrayed -- yes, betrayed -- as though I'd just had a close friend haul off and slap me in the face for no apparent reason.

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--Does almost every other shot (seemingly) have to consist of the Thorston Twins reaction to something or other?! There is such a thing as humor being forced.

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--When did the dragons get demoted to the status of oversize scaly dogs with wings, faithfully and instantly obeying every command their riders give? I'm sorry, but only ONE episode out of RTTE's 13 left me with a different impression (Ep. 13, 'Total Nightmare').

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Permit me to expand on this. It has already been more than implied, in the films and the TV series, that the dragons are very intelligent and have their own means of communication between themselves. It has also been shown (although nowhere near enough in my view) that they have independent streaks and individual personalities of their own.

Given this, the show's writers have what amounts to an amazing (and largely untapped) talent pool here. Some of the best moments in the entire TV series have been when a dragon just up and starts acting on their own initiative, leaving their rider to try and figure out what's going on. Episode 5 in Season 1 ('Race to Fireworm Island') did an outstanding job of exploring this. I consider it to be the best episode of Season 1, period.

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--I have mixed feelings about Hiccup and the rest of the riders taking up their own island. On the one wing, yes, it makes it easier to focus attention on the main group of characters for the story's continuation. On the other, I was under the impression one of the key reasons for having dragons around in the first place is so they can help defend their home (Berk, yes?) So how is splitting off the most experienced dragons and riders to their own island going to help with this?

For that matter, can just six rider-dragon pairs even defend an entire island on their own? Seems to me any attacking force would be a bare minimum of twenty, probably more.

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--"Plasma Blast!" If I had to pick the phrase I loathe most in the entire 'Dragons' franchise, this would be it.

I can accept some anachronisms for their humor value, but considering plasma, as a substance or state of matter, wasn't even discovered until 1879 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29) this is just too much. The whole purpose of the phrase seems to be to give the kiddies something which sounds Horribly Impressive to latch on to, and that's poor writing no matter how you type it. I'm surprised Jay Baruchel can voice it in this context without laughing himself silly.

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--'Star Wars' references. It is my impression Dean DeBlois really wants to be the next George Lucas, and he's developed the unfortunate habit of pushing blatant (and unwelcome) hints of this into the 'Dragons' franchise (come on -- Who didn't get the parallels to Luke and his lightsaber with Hiccup and his dragonfire sword in the second flick?)

The problem is 'Star Wars' and 'Dragons' are as different as night and day (and should remain so!) If DeBlois really wants to break away and work on being Lucas's understudy, perhaps he would do us all a big favor by turning the reins of 'Dragons' over to Chris Sanders (who, BTW, was badly marginalized in the second film).

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A friend of mine and I have discussed both movies, and the series, at length. We both agree the only way to recapture the magic and heart which made the first movie such a huge success would be for the third movie to pull a 'Dallas' move on the second.

In essence, this would start by showing some quick flashbacks to the end of the second movie -- and then having Hiccup wake up in bed, in the middle of the night, sweating and shaking from what would have been a bizarre nightmare. Things would then move forward as though the events in the second movie had never occurred.

Sadly, I doubt this will happen. I also doubt there will be much improvement in Season 2 of the current series (though I would dearly love to be proven wrong in this case).

Rhonin

30 Jun 2015, 18:51

kc7gr

30 Jun 2015, 17:45

It came as no surprise to me to see Dreamworks end their relationship with Cartoon Network. What did surprise (and disappoint) me was seeing that DeBlois and Co. Still don't seem to have gotten it through their heads that quality writing and storytelling is just as (if not more) important than eye-popping CGI.

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Dean DeBlois doesn't actually work on the TV series.

This is contrary to other information I've come across. Sanders and DeBlois are both listed in the credits as 'Created By...'

Given this, why would you say neither of them work on the series? Can you point me to more detailed information?

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While the second movie has its flaws, it is nowhere near "abandoned everything they did right in the first one".

I can already tell we're going to agree to disagree on this point, but I will save my comments for my other post in the appropriate forum.

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Nope, doesn't feel forced to me. I quite enjoy the twins' antics.

As do I, but in moderation, please! It still feels like we're getting too much of them.

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They did have three years of working with their riders, also Hookfang still does his own thing from time to time.

That's not the point. The first two seasons of the series had this problem as well. Why, for example, did we never see or learn anything more of the island the dragons chose to raise their hatchlings?

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You must have missed the part where Meatlug took on the Scauldron in "Big Man on Berk", or the Night Terrors formed the shape of a Fireworm Queen, or Skullcrusher trying to warn the riders and dragons of a tidalwave in "Crushing It", or Meatlug tried to be nice to the Catastrophic Quaken in "Quake, Rattle and Roll", without orders from somebody. Plus other small instances in the other episodes.

And how often do we see Toothless taking the initiative? Nowhere near as often as I think he should.

It's the fact they are 'small instances' which bother me. Now you mention it, though, you are partly correct in that I failed to acknowledge them. My bad.

The fact remains I still feel we don't see enough such things. Are the dragons advanced enough to have their own culture, their own customs? I've certainly gotten that impression since the first movie. Where are the details? Oh, granted, the dragon sanctuary in the second movie was gorgeous, but why such limited exploration of it?

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Berk hass managed to survive without dragon riders for 300 years, plus there are other dragons on Berk. And Dragon's Edge is only a day's flight way. They can send a message via Terrible Terror if they need help.

And how much damage can an attacking force do in a single day?

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The word plasma comes from the Ancient Greek πλάσμα (plásma, “something formed”)

I'm well aware of the word's origins. Plasma itself, however, as a state of matter, was not discovered until 1869 by William Crookes (google for 'Crookes Tube'). In the context of the series, it is obvious Toothless can shoot a blob of self-contained burning gases. How would Hiccup know this to be an example of plasma when the discovery of such won't be made for another 800 or so years?

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Again, Dean DeBlois and Chris Sanders do not work on the TV series.

Again, I question this, and it is in any case irrelevant to my original point. Why the 'Star Wars' memes in the second movie? It's already well known Dean DeBlois was very much taken by 'The Empire Strikes Back,' at least.

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This is horrible idea, and I consider "all just a dream" a terrible method to retcon something. I hope this never happens, in Dragons or some other series.

Again, we're going to agree to disagree. I see it as the only way to even start to recover the heart and soul put forth in the first film.

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In short, I disagree with almost everything you typed.

That's fine. It doesn't mean you're correct in everything you've replied with, any more than it means I may be. I'll be happy to debate these and any other topics in the appropriate forum sections.

kc7gr

 

This is contrary to other information I've come across. Sanders and DeBlois are both listed in the credits as 'Created By...'

Given this, why would you say neither of them work on the series? Can you point me to more detailed information?

kc7gr

 

The problem is 'Star Wars' and 'Dragons' are as different as night and day (and should remain so!) If DeBlois really wants to break away and work on being Lucas's understudy, perhaps he would do us all a big favor by turning the reins of 'Dragons' over to Chris Sanders (who, BTW, was badly marginalized in the second film).

kc7gr

 

I have mixed feelings about Hiccup and the rest of the riders taking up their own island. On the one wing, yes, it makes it easier to focus attention on the main group of characters for the story's continuation. On the other, I was under the impression one of the key reasons for having dragons around in the first place is so they can help defend their home (Berk, yes?) So how is splitting off the most experienced dragons and riders to their own island going to help with this?

For that matter, can just six rider-dragon pairs even defend an entire island on their own? Seems to me any attacking force would be a bare minimum of twenty, probably more.

kc7gr

 

"Plasma Blast!" If I had to pick the phrase I loathe most in the entire 'Dragons' franchise, this would be it.

I can accept some anachronisms for their humor value, but considering plasma, as a substance or state of matter, wasn't even discovered until 1879 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29) this is just too much. The whole purpose of the phrase seems to be to give the kiddies something which sounds Horribly Impressive to latch on to, and that's poor writing no matter how you type it. I'm surprised Jay Baruchel can voice it in this context without laughing himself silly.

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On the one wing

Also I saw what you did there.
And welcome to the forum, glad to have you sharing your ideas and thoughts. Just be prepared to have us go over them to death maybe.

Demonwolf002

01 Jul 2015, 00:52

kc7gr

 

This is contrary to other information I've come across. Sanders and DeBlois are both listed in the credits as 'Created By...'

Given this, why would you say neither of them work on the series? Can you point me to more detailed information?

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I can't tell you exactly where to look,(Think there's an article on this site actually) but the shows creators are Art Brown and Douglas Sloan. They have in the past stated that Dean (since Chris sanders was busy with The Croods) has consulted with them and told them what things they could and couldn't touch on. At least with season 1 & 2 season 3 I can't say as of right now. But neither Dean nor Chris work on this show at most Dean has consulted in the past but that's it.

I've actually found out, just this evening, that Chris's involvement with the entire series began and ended with the first movie. This, to my mind, explains so much it's not even funny.

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As Rhonin stated, the vikings don't need dragons to help them defend themselves. They fought against them for quite sometime. So I feel it goes without saying this is really neither here nor there. At least as far as Berks protection goes.

Fair enough. I'll let go of this one myself.

kc7gr

 

"Plasma Blast!" If I had to pick the phrase I loathe most in the entire 'Dragons' franchise, this would be it.

This is one of those things I just don't get the annoyance behind. I mean the franchise as a whole has done this since the beginning. You said it yourself you can accept anachronisms, well this is one of them I mean this franchise has always straddled this line between fantasy and realism. One of the biggest ones is modern speak for vikings or the fact the adults have accents but the kids don't. I mean heck look at Tuff and Ruff semi quoting Shakespeare years before he was even born.(and this is where I would agree with you somewhat on the idea that maybe it was a little to much with them two) Personally I've never had a problem with this because I feel DreamWorks has done a fairly successful job at keeping it balanced and not to in your face. I can understand the issue, I just think it's way past time to bring it up now.

Oddly enough, I have no problem with any of that. I think my annoyance with the plasma blast business comes mainly from my background (majored in physics, electronics engineering tech, etc.)

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I'll be the first to tell you that the second movie has it's flaws. As a matter of fact I've said before I think the HTTYD 2 is a good movie but a bad sequel. There a few reasons to be sure but one I will sate is because I feel that it lost the theme of the original. But I'll also be the first to stand up and tell you the first movie wasn't perfect either and has it's flaws to. So I'll be looking forward to your topic on the second movie to see what you have to say, but in the mean time you should (if you haven't) read over some of the old topics on the second movie. We've talked about quite a few different aspects of it.

Thank you. I will do so. While I have some pretty strong views on what went wrong, I would prefer not to reinvent the wheel, as it were (the Croods already did it). ;-)

Spoiler: click to toggle

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On the one wing

Also I saw what you did there.
And welcome to the forum, glad to have you sharing your ideas and thoughts. Just be prepared to have us go over them to death maybe.