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| Dagur: Character Deep Dive | |
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| Topic Started: 06 Oct 2023, 21:15 (21281 Views) | |
| Hiccup's Left Leg | 06 Oct 2023, 21:15 Post #11 |
Terrible Terror
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Maybe I'm remembering this wrong (or completely missing the point), but wasn't Dagur arrested by Alvin on Outcast Island? How could he have possibly been arrested and tried on Berk? There's no way Alvin would let him be tried on Berk. |
Toothless Army
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| Strike Class | 07 Oct 2023, 02:37 Post #12 |
Strike Class
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Technically, yes, but it was because Dagur invaded Berk and then went to Outcast Island since it's close to Berk and Hiccup could easily make the trade of Toothless for Stoick. I completely agree that Alvin would not want him to be tried on Berk, but I don't really think he had the right to arrest him even still. They had a verbal agreement that they both planned on breaking. Berk and Berserker Island basically had a law with their treaty that Dagur broke, so he violated their law. To me, it's comparable to an actor breaking a contract with a production company, but then they tell another shady actor that they are going for the same role. Only, both plan on sabotaging the other. At the end of the day, the actor wronged both parties, but is it more fair to let the production company decide the consequences or the other actor with the vendetta? Alvin was going to kill Dagur as soon as he gave him information about the Skrill and he got Berk. Dagur's betrayal of Alvin was just taking the Skrill and leaving. He really didn't do much to Alvin. Sure, he tried to kill him, but that was after Alvin attacked him first. In my opinion, Dagur's antagonism towards Alvin ranged from verbal insults to violent self-defense. He was wrong for what he did to the Berkians, but leaving him with someone who always planned on killing him and would no doubt be enraged with having been outsmarted and unable to go through with his plan just seems really mean to me. |
| Strike Class | 07 Oct 2023, 03:25 Post #13 |
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Strike Class
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Time for a hot take. I think Dagur would have been and was a better match for Viggo than Hiccup. Here is the explanation before the pitchforks get brought out and stabbed into me. Dagur’s the only character who has consistently bested Viggo. I’ll refer back to my post on 9/29/23 about how Hiccup for some reason brought the Dragon Eye on the mission in Maces and Talons and then all of Berk’s gold in Last Auction Heroes. At the end of the day, the only reason Viggo got defeated was because he was too arrogant to see that Krogan and Johann thought he was as expendable as he thinks everyone is. That’s what got him into trouble and in a very Alvin-like fashion, made him realize he needed to work with Hiccup if he wanted to stop his enemies. I feel like the main time Hiccup really bested Viggo was with the Buffalord and I’m frankly not sure why Viggo wasn’t suspicious about how easily he gave up the dragon, but I digress. For Dagur, though, there were several times when he messed something up for him. I’ll go in reverse order for what impressed me. In Gold Rush, Dagur was the one who found Viggo’s and Berk’s gold. It wasn’t even something that directly impacted him, but he still was able to get important information about Viggo’s operation. In the same episode, he was the one who figured out how to destroy the dragon proof ships. You also have the instance in Family on the Edge with Dagur being the only one to see that Viggo was setting a trap whereas Hiccup fell for it hook, line, and sinker. In the end of this episode, Dagur honestly had a great idea which unfortunately got wasted. Targeting the auctions was really smart. The riders had been stopping the hunters from getting dragons for a while and it wasn’t doing much. By going directly to where the hunters made money and sabotaging that, they could have really hurt Viggo. The biggest thing to me that I think a lot of people forget happened when Dagur was still bad. Even though Viggo saw through Heather, he was completely blindsided by Dagur. Both Grimborn brothers were suspicious about her, but neither of them knew Dagur was also their enemy. Of course, we can’t read their minds, but I think it’s shown in their actions. Viggo made a big deal about the traitor dying in the end and gave Heather all that special attention. He had Heather arrested. He even had DAGUR be the one to put her in a cell and didn’t keep track of him when she was supposed to be moved to the dungeons and possibly killed. I think even the show forgot that because Heather in Family on the Edge claimed that Dagur was trying to help his “master” by telling Viggo about their plan even though she was part of the plan to betray the hunters. Viggo never even really acknowledged him outside of 2 scenes: first telling him that he’s expendable and then telling him to stop thinking and just follow orders. Classic case of Viggo underestimating people because if he’d opened his eyes, he would have seen the most dangerous person he should have dealt with was the deranged Berserker who was secretly planning on killing him in the most horrific ways possible. I think the reason Viggo just dismissed Dagur even after the betrayal was due to their maces and talons game. With Heather, Viggo wanted to talk with her and could immediately tell that she didn’t have the heart to hurt innocent people or dragons. Then, he hoped she would be a fun adversary and was disappointed with the fact that she was not. With Dagur, he could see that he had it in him to evil, so he figured she was working alone. I think he was still unsure about him, though, so he wanted to play that game. When he won, he wrote Dagur off as being an idiot. A lot of characters do that, Ryker included. They see that Dagur thinks differently and assume that means he’s dumb. Even in that game, I find it intriguing how Viggo won. It wasn’t so much as him being way smarter and instead was a difference in strategies. He was thinking like a shifty crime lord. Nothing mattered as long as he took out his enemy/achieved his goal. If only one life is spared and is his, that’s a win. He didn’t care about the rest of his people dying. “No one is irreplaceable.” Meanwhile, Dagur is still a chief and thinks like one. To him, even without taking out Viggo’s viking king, he had already won because he’d killed all his people. A ruler who’s lost all their people has failed and that’s how he perceived it. Even with them both being evil, I would’ve loved to have seen more of their interactions. They both are so smart but in such different ways with unique strengths and weaknesses. |
| Strike Class | 12 Oct 2023, 14:45 Post #14 |
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Strike Class
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Topic this time: Theory for ages Since neither the series or official websites have given an age for some of the show only characters (minus Gustav as if that's fair), I have often found myself guesstimating Dagur's age. I have read stories where people see him as being 4 years older than Hiccup and those which see him as even older. In my opinion, in RoB/DoB, he is probably 18. I have four reasons why I think this. The first is thinking about how Dagur was acting. Now, I know that viking times were different from ours, so people would have behaved differently at certain ages than we do now, but this is a show about dragons. it's not necessarily historical and the writers are of modern day, so they are unconsciously influenced by the way our world is. When I think of 18-year-olds, I think of people who are trying to prove themselves and set themselves apart from their parents. They are technically considered adults, but they are also not truly considered adults by older people. Because of this, there is a lot of insecurity and bad decision-making. Dagur could have been an "adult" at that point but still a teenager. I feel this was symbolized by him becoming a chief, but still being practically dismissed in favor of his father by Stoick and Gobber and referred to as "boy" by Alvin. At every turn in Twinsanity, he was compared to Oswald. In a moment I found particularly rude, his toast was ignored so that a toast to Oswald could be given instead. The Riders treat him differently since he is older than they are, but the actual adults of Berk still view him as a kid. Also in this episode, Dagur is still trying to prove himself. The whole situation is him trying and he even admits this later by saying it's why he let people think he killed Oswald to prove to them that he was tough enough to be a feared leader. In the same way as most 18-year-olds are put in new environments with college, he is by having a tribe to lead. The second reason is about Stoick. He's a protective dad and I simply can't imagine him being all right with Dagur and Hiccup spending so much time together if he was significantly older. We already know those times involved knives and attempted drowning. He is protective of the other Berk youths as well, so I find it difficult to believe that he would have put them in that situation too if Dagur had practically been an adult already. I still think it is odd that he never said anything about what did happen, but I can sooner see him thinking it's kids being kids than him being like, "Oh, a 16-year-old is trying to drown my 10-year-old child. This is fine." The third reason is about voices. Nearly none of the older characters have American accents. Later on in RTTE, I think characters like the Wing Maidens and Defenders have different accents to show that they are from other cultures; however, in DoB and RoB, they aren't traveling beyond the archipelago. The funniest thing to me with their voices was always that Hiccup and the other teens had American accents and then the adults had Scottish accents. I believe the reason is to create a subconscious connection with the younger ones. Without having to do anything besides give the VAs lines to read, the writers can have the viewers build closer connections with the younger characters since they already have something in common. Finally, my fourth reason is about the visuals. The adult characters barely changed if they changed at all from DoB to RTTE. It makes sense because it was only three years and adults mature at a slower rate. Contrarily, all of the riders and Dagur looked extremely different. I would actually argue that Dagur looked the most different from his younger self (which makes sense to me since he spent that time in prison). If he had already been in his twenties, even early, I doubt there would have been as much changing. We can clearly see that he can become muscular, but it's also known that youths tend to not have as much muscle as adults just due to the way their bodies are. He still had an athletic build, but he was way thinner back then. There's also the beard trying to come in. Every other guy with a beard has a thick one, but his is still growing in and looks as patchy as you'd expect. What do you guys think though? |
| Strike Class | 15 Oct 2023, 04:27 Post #15 |
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Strike Class
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Quick theory It's my headcanon that Dagur and his Berserkers attacked Heather's island after he escaped from prison. I wish they gave us an explanation for why that happened. In this scenario, I think it was when he got the new supplies (armor, new clothes, etc.). I am thinking that he either went there, they recognized him, and he killed them to prevent from being returned to prison or he did what he talked about doing in Heather's first episode in RTTE which was to kill the people so that he didn't have to pay. It just doesn't make sense to me why he would have gone out to another place before then. He was so focused on Hiccup in DoB. The most he did was go after Johann/use him to get to Hiccup. What would have even led him to want to go to another island for any reason? If it's when he escapes, he needs supplies. He got that stuff from somewhere and I'm pretty sure those vikings are dead now. Using him as an example, we can see how good Berserkers can be on dragons after one day, so Heather might not have had Windshear for years like the others have had their dragons. On a side note, I have to laugh a bit at how he basically has the highest confirmed human killcount of any character in the show. Just adds to why he was such a great villain. |
| Dragonrider's Fury | 18 Oct 2023, 17:45 Post #16 |
Skrill
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Interesting points about Dagur's age. I always assumed he and Hiccup were pretty close in that regard, and you make good observations. In order to continue the discussion, I should raise counterpoints, but I can't seem to think of any. 
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| Strike Class | 18 Oct 2023, 22:47 Post #17 |
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Strike Class
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Thanks! I'm actually happy that the theory is hard to fight. To promote more discussion, I do have a more contradictory opinion, so you'll probably have some different thoughts here. I know that we never actually got to see Oswald, but I think he was probably a bad dad. The main thing to me was the fact that Dagur could pretend he killed him. An argument could be made that it was easy to believe he would have killed him because he was unstable and viewed Oswald as weak. That doesn't reflect badly on Oswald since there have been a lot of parents unfortunately with criminal children. However, the fact that Dagur didn't even know where he was and apparently no one else on he island did either is bad to me. Yes, Oswald got stranded, so I don't blame him for staying gone, but how do you as a chief and father just leave without letting anyone know? They could have gotten attack and would have had no way to reach him. For my earlier point, they have 50,000 warriors. How many Vikings total do they have since that excludes elders and babies? To leave your teenager with that type of responsibility on their shoulders all alone is highly irresponsible. Hiccup at least was 20, has his mom who had spent time as a chieftess, Gobber, Astrid, and the other riders. Oswald left Dagur high and dry and you know, didn't die unlike Stoick. He willingly left. Seems like an absentee dad to me. No way am I leaving that many lives in someone's hands even if they are extremely mentally sound. What do you think? |
| Dragonrider's Fury | 19 Oct 2023, 00:03 Post #18 |
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Skrill
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I assumed (and feel like it's strongly implied) that Oswald got blown off course and lost in a storm or something while sailing on Chiefly business before being shipwrecked on Vanaheim. And even if he could have built a new ship there, from what we see, don't you think the Sentinels would have kept him from leaving?  Also, remember his letter to Dagur? That doesn't sound like anything a bad dad would write to his son. And too, though he had no way to send them, he wrote letters to each of his children. Another point worth considering is that the other vikings all seemed to respect and look up to Oswald. Granted, Stoick was largely respected as well, and he admittedly wasn't the greatest dad ever. However, consider: Hiccup apparently looked up to Oswald; Hiccup, who was on the receiving end of poor parenting for about 15 years. He would be all to familiar with the situation, and I cannot imagine him respecting a foreign father who treated his son as Hiccup himself had been treated for so many years. What think you? |
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| Strike Class | 19 Oct 2023, 05:26 Post #19 |
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Strike Class
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Now we're cooking with gas  ! Okay! I can totally see where you're coming from. Personally though, I have seen so, so, so many people talk the talk but not walk the walk. On the outside, they are amazing. They're attentive, caring, respectful, etc. Behind closed doors, they're totally different people. I don't see Oswald as someone who was a monster or anything, but I do feel like it's very easy to write down "I love you" as opposed to showing that. I've been told just that by people who have not demonstrated that love through their actions. Even before reading the letter, when Hiccup said that Oswald was Dagur's dad and loved him, Dagur said he guessed they'd never know. That's so sad to me. I know people who even if we were in a huge fight, I know their love is strong and we wouldn't have to wonder if we cared about each other. Forget like at this point, Dagur didn't even think his own father loved him.With Hiccup, it's more of this. I don't think he would have seen Oswald acting neglectfully. If he had, I absolutely think he would not have liked him. I actually read a fanfic about this recently called Peace Treaty Visits where their four perspectives (Dagur's, Hiccup's, Oswald's, and Stoick's) are shown. Regarding Oswald being on a visit with another chief, I just don't know if I can agree. When Stoick did that, he told Hiccup he was leaving with Thornado. If Oswald did, again, why not tell anyone? How did no one in his tribe even know his final whereabouts? That's reckless. Dagur never should have been able to make people believe he killed his dad because at least one other Berserker should have been told where he was going. For the final thing, even the content of the letter bothers me a little. Oswald said how he hoped Dagur was just going through a crazy, destructive phase. Now, I won't blame him too much for that since I think a lack of education on mental health is the real problem here. I do think it shows how Oswald just cannot understand Dagur, though. The part of the letter that actually confuses me is the part about Heather. He said he hoped Dagur would protect her...from the flashback, Heather was definitely not a teenager when she was sent adrift. So, she had to have been gone long before Oswald was. How in the world would Dagur protect her? Oswald should have known she had been gone for years. That puzzles the mess out of me. Surely, he was not so oblivious to his tribe that he did not even notice his daughter was gone. So, was he losing his mind too? Maybe he latched onto the final nice memories he had of his family which of course would include Heather. In that case, that also could be why his letter to Dagur was so nice. He's not really living in reality in that moment and is almost in this fantasy world. (This is really fun!) |
| Dragonrider's Fury | 21 Oct 2023, 02:05 Post #20 |
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Skrill
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(Please, if anyone else wants to jump in on this discussion, do! Two-way conversations are all very well and good, but I'd love to get some other perspectives/opinions!) That's true; however, you have to remember that at that point, Dagur was clearly under a crushing load of guilt for not, well, doing anything back in the past to reciprocate his father's love. That will make you think and see things differently. Had Oswald not been a good father to him, Dagur would not have cared as much. Obviously, there is (usually) an emotional bond between father and son that even very poor parenting would not break, but we can tell from Dagur's behavior that he cared hugely that he had not been the son he should have. What makes you think he didn't? Just because we didn't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't. We don't actually see Astrid bonding with Stormfly, for instance, yet she very clearly did. As for how no one in his tribe knew his final location, how could they? He was unexpectedly stranded on an island, with no means of communication. If you mean "How did no one in his tribe know his intended destination?", again, we don't know that that's the case. But the most anyone would have had was "Chief Oswald was sailing to meet with the chief of the Shivering Shores {or whatever}. Chief Oswald never made it there," or perhaps, "Chief Oswald met with Chieftess Bertha of the Bog Burglar Tribe {or whatever}, then sailed for home. Chief Oswald never made it back."You do have a pretty solid point that Dagur shouldn't have been able to make people believe he killed Oswald. However, there is a situation in which that is believable: Suppose, to give Dagur some practical experience, Oswald took Dagur with him to the meeting, but gave Dagur a separate ship. The two sail there, the chiefs have their meeting (Dagur attending), and then the two Berserkers head for home. On the way, a bad storm comes up, and the two get separated. Once it blows itself out and Dagur is able to get home, in his megalo-egomania, he realizes, "Cool, now I'm finally the Chief!" Questioned by his tibesmen about what happened to Oswald, he lies that he killed him somewhere on the open sea (easy enough to do). Now he's everything-ish wanted in a chief. The obvious answer here is that the writers weren't really thinking through previous events as much as they should have been. An in-universe answer, though, would (again) require more thinking than I feel like doing at the moment, since I've already been working on typing this for a rather long time. This is fun, though!
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