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| Golden Globe goes to How To Train Your Dragon 2 | |
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| Topic Started: 15 Jan 2015, 03:36 (22160 Views) | |
| DuckDuckDoose | 15 Jan 2015, 03:36 Post #51 |
Dragon Egg
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If fans get to keep saying how good HTTYD2 is, it's only fair that critics get to criticize HTTYD2 the same amount. |
| Cartoon Freak | 15 Jan 2015, 08:36 Post #52 |
Deadly Nadder
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EDIT: Well, there went the last fragments of my faith in humanity. The Oscar nominations were an odd place for it to happen, but I suppose faith in humanity is fundamentally irrational to begin with. What makes you so sure I'm not? It is possible to frequent multiple forums, you know. In the end, however, what I do on other forums is of no relevance to what I do on this forum. Well, unless I happened to link to a conversation I was in on said other forum in order to make a point, but I don't think I've ever done that. When one has to make a decision between two films of similar quality (as one will often have to do when voting in movie awards), then the only logical thing to do is to look at which film got the fundamentals right. In this case, the fundamentals can be summed up in one word: consistency. Consistent plot, consistent characterisation, consistent theme (note that I wouldn't say that either film had a problem in that last one), etc. When looked at this way, The Lego Movie is the clear winner. It simply has far less flaws than HTTYD 2. While it is true that the one flaw I've found in The Lego Movie (the whole Emmet moving in the real world thing) is a big one (it singlehandedly stopped it from being one of the greatest movies of all time, and the obvious animated film of choice for English courses), it still isn't nearly as plot-breaking as, say, Drago leaving the heroes alive for no sensible reason, going completely against his character in the process. 1. To take the time travel stories as an example, time travel would be part of the concept, and thus an acceptable break from reality. Note, however, that the most popular time travel stories of all time, that is, Doctor Who, have the sense to make the viewpoint characters (the companions) novices in the field of time travel. Therefore, they don't have to explain it completely, because the Doctor never explains it completely. Rather, he gives some rules, and you can bet that if these rules are broken, then the fans are going to complain, and with good reason. You can do pretty much anything you like in the setup, but if you break those established rules later in the story without explanation, that's poor writing. To give another example, I've yet to see anyone who has a significant problem with Superman being able to fly, or have super-strength, or any of his other standard problems. I've also yet to see anyone who thought that it wasn't stupid when, in Superman II, he suddenly had the ability to wipe Lois Lane's memory with a kiss. To bring things back to HTTYD 2, I will happily accept that dragons exist in this universe. That's part of the concept, and made clear in the opening minutes of each movie. When you introduce random superpowers after the first act of the movie with no explanation of how they're supposed to work (Valka's magic hands) or with inadequate explanation (the Bewilderbeast's mind control powers - yes, it is possible to make sense of this, but it's not the audience's job to make key plot points make sense), that's bad writing. 2. Regarding characters, you are right in that there is room for ambiguity in some situations. There are, however, plenty of situations where that doesn't apply, where the action goes so much against the fundamental nature of the character, that unless the writers give us one heck of an explanation, it's simply not going to be acceptable. Let me give an example: let's say that, at the end of HTTYD 2, Hiccup intentionally stabbed Toothless right through the throat, killing him, and that no explanation was given for why he did this. Would you consider this to be good writing or bad writing? I'm really hoping you said "bad writing", because this action would go against the fundamental nature of Hiccup's character. Sure, one can write a situation where the act would make sense, but without that explanation, it makes no sense. Now let's look at how Drago acts in the actual movie. One of his fundamental character traits is shown in his first scene (that is, Stoick's flashback). In this scene, it is shown that Drago will kill anyone who doesn't submit to his rule. These people didn't actively oppose him, and he still killed them. Now, after he gains control of all the dragons, we're supposed to believe that he lets nine people who actively opposed him (including Valka, who has been a thorn in his side for quite a while, and Eret, a traitor) live? No, that makes no sense. It goes against everything we know about Drago, and we are given no explanation for why he does this. Heck, he was trying to kill Hiccup via Toothless before Stoick took the blast, so it's not like there's any sign that Drago has changed since then. It can't even be justified as being necessary for the plot. It would have been simple enough for Drago to just have the Bewilderbeast launch a massive attack at the heroes, have them survive through luck and/or quick thinking, and have Drago assume they died. Sure, that wouldn't be great writing, but it would be in-character for Drago (heck, he was basically doing the same thing when ordering Toothless to attack Hiccup). 1. When discussing an award, one of the obvious discussion angles is to ask the question, "Did this go to the right film (or whatever the award went to)?" That obviously requires comparisons to the other nominees. I've chosen to go with The Lego Movie. If someone else wants to come in to argue for Big Hero 6 or another nominee, then I fully endorse their right to make that argument on this topic (even though I would most likely disagree with the argument itself). 2. When have I said that HTTYD 2 is a bad movie? I certainly can't think of a single instance, and if you can find one, then I will gladly apologise for and retract the comments in question. I have certainly said things like the following: HTTYD 2 is flawed; HTTYD 2 is not as good as the original film; HTTYD 2 is overrated; HTTYD 2 is not a great movie (though I generally clarify such statements by saying that it is a good movie); HTTYD 2 is not as good as The Lego Movie; HTTYD 2 did not deserve to win the Golden Globe. There are probably some other basic comments I've made, but my point is that they're all very different from saying that HTTYD 2 is a bad movie. |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
| hcsp1 | 15 Jan 2015, 10:07 Post #53 |
My only master is the free wind
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So, the Oscars nominations are in and... "The Lego Movie" isn't even nominated... I'm really suprised but oh well... more chances HTTYD 2 will take the prize! And before someone comments to this telling me it's flawed and stuff... don't waste your time. I still love this movie. If it wins, I don't care if it deserves it or not by the standerts, I'll be happy a movie that I liked won. End of story. |
| DarthBacon | 15 Jan 2015, 11:28 Post #54 |
Gronckle
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Well. Wow. I did not see that coming. I feel that HTTYD 2 deserved a best original score nomination more than the best animated feature but 
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| Cartoon Freak | 15 Jan 2015, 12:00 Post #55 |
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Deadly Nadder
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In such an event, will you also be happy that HTTYD 3 is doomed to mediocrity? Think about it: in the event that HTTYD 2 wins the Best Animated Picture Oscar, then where's the motivation for DeBlois to improve? He'll already have received the highest honour that he can reasonably get in his current field (hypothetically, if he were to move into live action, he might think he stood a chance at a Best Picture win, but that's really outside my cares). At best, he'll stagnate. More likely, he'll regress, as better creators than him have done when faced with acclaim. On the other hand, if DeBlois misses out on that Oscar again, that could well be the push he needs to really dig deep into HTTYD 3's story, thinking about it from every possible angle, fixing up every flaw to produce a truly great story. I don't even have half the optimism I would need to even conceive of the possibility of HTTYD 3 being better than the original, but being better than the second film is certainly within the realm of possibility. In the end, if HTTYD 2 wins that Oscar, the will will simply not be there. If it loses, then the will will be there. Therefore, for the good of the HTTYD franchise, I'm placing my hopes on Big Hero 6 winning the Best Animated Picture Oscar. Well, I suppose any of the nominees (other than HTTYD 2, of course) will do, but screw Boxtrolls (I get the feeling that's the one that stole The Lego Movie's slot, much like it most likely stole HTTYD 2's slot at the BAFTAs), and I don't know enough about the other two nominees to make any sort of judgement on them. Big Hero 6 is roughly as good as HTTYD 2, and it winning will make HTTYD 3 better. So yeah, go win that Oscar, Big Hero 6, and I'll be satisfied with my care. |
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Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18. My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy. | |
| Hic626 | 15 Jan 2015, 13:32 Post #56 |
Terrible Terror
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A few things: 1. The Lego Movie is the Lego Movie. However good it is (and I think it's great too), it's still a 90 minute toy commercial. Academy voters obviously see this. 2. It came out last in Feburary of last year, animations normally don't have the legs to keep voters interested for that long. 3. Please don't wax lyrical about how The Lego Movie 'has no faults'. It's a movie, they're subjective. I thought the live-action ending was not quite as successful as it could had been, but it didn't ruin my overall experience of the film. Or is your opinion the only one that matters? I too was surprised it didn't get a nomination though, I still liked it a lot. |
| hcsp1 | 15 Jan 2015, 13:53 Post #57 |
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My only master is the free wind
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Huh? [/quote]Think about it: in the event that HTTYD 2 wins the Best Animated Picture Oscar, then where's the motivation for DeBlois to improve? He'll already have received the highest honour that he can reasonably get in his current field (hypothetically, if he were to move into live action, he might think he stood a chance at a Best Picture win, but that's really outside my cares). At best, he'll stagnate. More likely, he'll regress, as better creators than him have done when faced with acclaim. On the other hand, if DeBlois misses out on that Oscar again, that could well be the push he needs to really dig deep into HTTYD 3's story, thinking about it from every possible angle, fixing up every flaw to produce a truly great story. I don't even have half the optimism I would need to even conceive of the possibility of HTTYD 3 being better than the original, but being better than the second film is certainly within the realm of possibility. In the end, if HTTYD 2 wins that Oscar, the will will simply not be there. If it loses, then the will will be there. Therefore, for the good of the HTTYD franchise, I'm placing my hopes on Big Hero 6 winning the Best Animated Picture Oscar. Well, I suppose any of the nominees (other than HTTYD 2, of course) will do, but screw Boxtrolls (I get the feeling that's the one that stole The Lego Movie's slot, much like it most likely stole HTTYD 2's slot at the BAFTAs), and I don't know enough about the other two nominees to make any sort of judgement on them. Big Hero 6 is roughly as good as HTTYD 2, and it winning will make HTTYD 3 better. So yeah, go win that Oscar, Big Hero 6, and I'll be satisfied with my care. [/quote] I... what?! So, based on that logic, The Cohen Brothers made nothing but bad movies after "No Country For Old Men" because that got them an Oscar and they were like "Yeah, good enough, let's just make crap now". And The Cohen Brothers don't do bad films... I bet it's a law somewhere in the world. But, back on topic, you are saying that if HTTYD 2 wins than DeBlois will go "Yeah... Screw everything I already have PLANNED OUT for the 3rd film. I'll just ditch it all and shit out something because screw it! I got an Oscar, so everyone will buy it and be happy with it!" As of now, from intereviews with Dean about HTTYD 3, he already has the story planned from beginning to end(I remember him saying something like that back when HTTYD 2 was released on Blue-Ray, meaning 3 months ago pretty much) and is now going through drafts of it(Again, since pretty much the same time as the intereview). The movie is set to come out in June 2017, that's about 2 and a half years from now. The Oscars are set to happen in a few months(I believe March? Not sure) So, it doesn't matter if HTTYD 2 will win or not, HTTYD 3 will probably be in the voice recording stages and maybe very early animation stages by that time, meaning the script phase is complete. Re-writes are of course optional but what movie maker in his right mind will go back to a script after he won an Oscar going "Let's make this movie suck now"? Something about that way of thinking is just... wired. If that's how you see this situation, I'm not going to try and change it(Because I can't successed) and I don't want to start a pointless debate that will lead to nowhere. So, let's just close this by saying the above wall of text is my point of view like you have your own. Which one of them is right? For all we know... no one's as we have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. I just can't wait to the "After Oscars" topic... |
| DarthBacon | 15 Jan 2015, 13:55 Post #58 |
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Gronckle
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Let me just say this. I'm glad HTTYD 2 got nominated and will be really happy if it wins, but if The Lego Movie had been Pixar, it would have been nominated. I'm sure. Considering Brave got a nomination which it ended up winning, I'm sure the Pixar tag is enough to get you an Oscar, however bad the movie actually is. Also, HTTYD 2 being longlisted in the original score nominees and not getting shortlisted is really really unfair. Those 10 seconds of Stoick's Ship alone should have fetched that Oscar for Powell, forget a nomination. They did the same thing in 2010 too, giving The Social Network the award over HTTYD. If the academy keeps on doing stuff like this, I'm pretty much going to give up on them forever. |
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| Dragon's Apprentice | 15 Jan 2015, 14:59 Post #59 |
Mr. Potato Sandwich
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Okay.... i'm just going to put this out there to put to rest all of the "httd2 getting an oscar could ruin httyd3" for us. Everyone on the team for a movie makes a movie because they enjoy it. Like musicians make their music because they enjoy it. From animators to writers, directors, actors and every other job description you could mention in the process of creating something from nothing- They are all artists. They don't make a movie to make themselves more famous, or to get an oscar. i'm sure if you asked any of them, the oscars are just an added pat on the back for hard work done. I think it's offensive (not just to Dean DeBlois but to the entire team) to say that an oscar could mean anything but good things for httyd3. To say that such talented people could make something mediocre because their egos can't take a feeling of accomplishment is just wrong. I think it's great to see them get awards like this and i hope it happens again (and again and again for years to come after HTTYD is log over) because since the very beginning from Cressida Cowell putting ink to paper to Dean DeBlois accepting that award this franchise has been made into something great, something special, and it will always be. Petty opinion squabbling aside, you have to have enough confidence in these wonderful people to know they're are never going to become egotistical. If they were, they would have had every right to be so already. Not every sequel is a flop, this has been proven a lot recently but yet everyone is surprised when it still happens. They have the ability to do it. So let's hope they do it again, and please don't bring the creative team behind this franchise into question because the lego movie didn't get nominated for an oscar. So... as good fans should, let's give them a pat on the back even if they win an oscar or not. |
| "I was so afraid of becoming my dad. Mostly because I thought I never could. How do you become someone that great, that brave, that selfless? I guess you can only try."</3 | |
| hcsp1 | 15 Jan 2015, 15:11 Post #60 |
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My only master is the free wind
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Freaking Amen to that! |
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