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cloudjumper/toothless
Topic Started: 10 May 2015, 01:16 (1142 Views)
draco
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mystery dragon, pic drawn by night fury fire. Thank you
:)

Something that I've been wondering.
After hiccup met his mom. And toothless interacts with cloudjumper. Toothless acts like cloudjumper is a father figure I guess. That just always made me wonder.
Dragons, need I say more.

Hiccup, chief of berc, dragon master.
Toothless, alpha dragon.
You and me bud we can do this, as one.
It's just a zipple misunderstanding
I like a pit, but I love a boar pit.
i am hurt,I am very much hurt.
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Cartoon Freak
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Deadly Nadder

Eh, looks more like Toothless was flirting with Cloudumper, if you ask me. And now that Toothless is the Alpha, well... let's just say, "It's good to be the Alpha."

At least, that's the only thing that makes that sequence remotely bearable to watch.
Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18.

My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy.
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hictooth
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Archivist of Berk

In the snow scene, I think that Toothless and Cloudjumper act like siblings. Cloudjumper acts like the older, wiser one, while Toothless is like an energetic younger one, looking at Cloudjumper for advice.

That's how I always saw it.

hictooth
Astrid - "Hictooth"?
Hiccup - Yeah, it's not my snappiest comeback.
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VeloYourSwaggyDragon
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I am... swaggy

Cloudjumper is basically the mentor figure to Toothless, just as Valka is to Hiccup. They're the dragon parallel to Hiccup and Valka's relationship.

I like to think that Cloudjumper is the "knight" or "advisor" to his Alpha. As we've seen, right before the climax of the first battle when the good Bewilderbeast erupts from his nest, Cloudjumper stays close to him to fight by his side. At the end of the movie, Cloudjumper is the first to bow to Toothless, signifiying he is the most loyal one in the dragon hierarchy.
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draco
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mystery dragon, pic drawn by night fury fire. Thank you
:)

wow,hictooth and veloyourswaggydragon, thats an interesting way to think about it. :)
Dragons, need I say more.

Hiccup, chief of berc, dragon master.
Toothless, alpha dragon.
You and me bud we can do this, as one.
It's just a zipple misunderstanding
I like a pit, but I love a boar pit.
i am hurt,I am very much hurt.
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Cartoon Freak
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VeloYourSwaggyDragon
11 May 2015, 01:40
Cloudjumper is basically the mentor figure to Toothless, just as Valka is to Hiccup. They're the dragon parallel to Hiccup and Valka's relationship.
Question that just occurred to me: what did Valka and Cloudjumper teach Hiccup and Toothless, respectively? The only thing of any importance that I can think of is Valka locating Toothless' on switch, and given that Toothless can activate that by himself (Why couldn't he do it before? I don't think there's a single human being who knows the answer to that question), that was really something Valka taught Toothless, rather than Hiccup. As for Cloudjumper, I can't think of anything important he actually does beyond "carry Valka."

I swear, this movie gets worse the more I think about it. Bring on Race to the Edge so I have something better to think about in relation to this franchise.
Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18.

My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy.
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hcsp1
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My only master is the free wind

Cartoon Freak
11 May 2015, 11:20
VeloYourSwaggyDragon
11 May 2015, 01:40
Cloudjumper is basically the mentor figure to Toothless, just as Valka is to Hiccup. They're the dragon parallel to Hiccup and Valka's relationship.
Question that just occurred to me: what did Valka and Cloudjumper teach Hiccup and Toothless, respectively? The only thing of any importance that I can think of is Valka locating Toothless' on switch, and given that Toothless can activate that by himself (Why couldn't he do it before? I don't think there's a single human being who knows the answer to that question), that was really something Valka taught Toothless, rather than Hiccup. As for Cloudjumper, I can't think of anything important he actually does beyond "carry Valka."

I swear, this movie gets worse the more I think about it. Bring on Race to the Edge so I have something better to think about in relation to this franchise.
I always thought that Toothless never really knew about that feature about himself until Valka activated it for the first time, based on the fact he's all happy and excited about this when he finds out. When he activates it by himself in the final fight, he probably tried to repeat the thing Valka made him go through in order for that to work. This is of course not official, that's just what I got from it.

To the actual topic, I saw these two as two siblings in a sense. Cloud-Jumper as the mature big brother and Toothless as the younger, more happy go lucky, brother. During the points where Toothless doesn't know how to act around the baby dragons and has no fish left to eat, Cloud-Jumper scares the babies away and then gives Toothless this cocky look and he provides Toothless with some of the fish he ate; things that are simillar to how older siblings interact with their younger siblings. The part where Toothless hides beneath Cloud-Jumper's wing also reminds me of a little kid wanting to play with his brother(From what I've seen. I'm a single child so I don't speak from experience).

Also, after Hiccup shows Valka his gliding suit Toothless gives Cloudjumper this "Who has the better human now?" face before he changes it to a "Uh... I didn't say anything bad about you..." Again, very sibling like. When Toothless is crowned Alpha, Cloud-Jumper is the first to bow and he has that look on his face that shows he is very impressed with Toothless's actions. The part Toothless also sits in this regal pose is also like he's saying "Now YOU bow to me."

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Cartoon Freak
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I always thought that Toothless never really knew about that feature about himself until Valka activated it for the first time, based on the fact he's all happy and excited about this when he finds out. When he activates it by himself in the final fight, he probably tried to repeat the thing Valka made him go through in order for that to work. This is of course not official, that's just what I got from it.
That would be like me not knowing that my shoulder functions as a ball-and-socket joint rather than a hinge (okay, it would be reasonable enough for a person to not have suitable terminology for those things, but you get the idea). It's a basic function of my body that I consciously control - my basic instincts allow me to know how to do these things. I didn't need some Timothy Treadwell rip-off (well, sadly she wasn't ripping him off as much as I'd like, and I doubt she ever will) to show me how to perform basic, conscious bodily functions. Likewise, it doesn't make sense that Toothless needs some squishy human to show him something he should already know how to do from sheer instinct.
Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18.

My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy.
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Toothless123
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I saw this and I just had to make it into my profile picture.

Cartoon Freak
11 May 2015, 13:19
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I always thought that Toothless never really knew about that feature about himself until Valka activated it for the first time, based on the fact he's all happy and excited about this when he finds out. When he activates it by himself in the final fight, he probably tried to repeat the thing Valka made him go through in order for that to work. This is of course not official, that's just what I got from it.
That would be like me not knowing that my shoulder functions as a ball-and-socket joint rather than a hinge (okay, it would be reasonable enough for a person to not have suitable terminology for those things, but you get the idea). It's a basic function of my body that I consciously control - my basic instincts allow me to know how to do these things. I didn't need some Timothy Treadwell rip-off (well, sadly she wasn't ripping him off as much as I'd like, and I doubt she ever will) to show me how to perform basic, conscious bodily functions. Likewise, it doesn't make sense that Toothless needs some squishy human to show him something he should already know how to do from sheer instinct.
Well, maybe when Toothless crashed when Hiccup shot him down it damaged him mentally as well as physically. Something could have happened in his brain that caused him to forget his instincts.

Toothless could've spent so much time with Hiccup that he thinks he's a human (it happened with Valka, only vice versa; and she was the one who modified him XD so maybe she could have know this - Hiccup and Toothless have only spent five years together, Valka and Cloudjumper have spent two decades together, so it wouldn't be surprising if Cloudjumper started to exhibit some human tendencies, regardless of being surrounded by wild dragons. Proof of this point could be how he appears prideful and somewhat annoyed by Toothless), and thus he thinks he doesn't "need" dragon instincts.

And maybe he thinks Hiccup or other humans can do everything for him. Hiccup was able to make him fly again, so I think it's possible that he's just become reliant.

(In regards to my earlier point about how Cloudjumper exhibits human tendencies and emotions, despite being surrounded by wild dragons, I propose to you this in support of my point: Toothless might've heard the Queen's call inside his head during his time inside the Cove. Just because we didn't see it, doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. I've read fanfics about it - although I know that the writers can take some creative license, it seems logical. Anyway, hearing the call must've triggered some sort of "wildness" in his brain, but he must have bonded too much with Hiccup by then to succumb to it. And even if he was taken over by it, he couldn't fly anyway. So, basically, Toothless and Cloudjumper's love of their humans prevented them from becoming wild*. Sound familiar? :)
*This at least counts for the Red Death's mind-control- as it's weaker than Bewilderbeast mind- control- and also Cloudjumper's resistance of becoming feral like the other dragons in the Sanctuary, which I assume is a sort of mind-control. However, even Bewilderbeast mind-control was able to be resisted by Toothless, as we saw, and Valka might have been able to bring back Cloudjumper using a special method too - given her expertise with dragons, even though she hadn't seen Bewilderbeast mind-control before, she might have seen something similar to its effects on one of the dragons of the Sanctuary, or even Cloudjumper himself - e.g. eels, dragon root, etc.
I guess overall it depends on the bond between the dragon and its rider - even though Astrid and Fishleg's bond with their dragons is pretty strong, they only came back from the mind control when Toothless called them. Valka and Cloudjumper's bond with each other is probably stronger than all of the riders' put together, even Hiccup and Toothless, since, I repeat, they've been in each other's company for two decades.)
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Cartoon Freak
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Well, maybe when Toothless crashed when Hiccup shot him down it damaged him mentally as well as physically. Something could have happened in his brain that caused him to forget his instincts.
No. Just no. The word "no" does not adequately convey the sheer no-ness I'm thinking right now.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Toothless has any sort of mental damage. By all evidence, he is among the most intelligent dragons (with his only rivals being Cloudumper, and possibly the Red Death and the Bewilderbeasts), so this doesn't even begin to make sense.
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Toothless could've spent so much time with Hiccup that he thinks he's a human (it happened with Valka, only vice versa; and she was the one who modified him XD so maybe she could have know this).
Um, Valka doesn't think she's a dragon. If she did, she'd actually be a halfway interesting character, and wouldn't speak perfectly-enunciated English (what DeBlois was thinking when casting Blanchett in this role, I have no idea - terrible, terrible miscasting). There's a reason I brought up the Timothy Treadwell comparison, because she really is more like him, that is, a person so desperately trying to be an animal, and just revealing the sheer ridiculousness of their enterprise. Sadly, unlike Treadwell, Valka hasn't been eaten. This not only means we're stuck with her (thankfully, Race to the Edge is still managing to avoid this giant problem), but also removes any element of cautionary example from her character, thus leaving us with this functionally perfect, and thus frustratingly boring, excuse for a character.

Getting things back on topic, Toothless was around for about a dozen years before he even met Hiccup. That's twice as long as they've known each other, covering their formative years. It's complete nonsense to suppose that Toothless thinks he's a human. He's way past the point of imprinting. Sure, he's picked up a few human mannerisms, but that's completely different from forgetting how to perform a basic conscious bodily action. Heck, both Gift of the Night Fury and HTTYD 2 show that he still knows how to fly by himself, even though he's largely incapable of physically doing it.
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And maybe he thinks Hiccup or other humans can do everything for him. Hiccup was able to make him fly again, so I think it's possible that he's just become reliant.
You know, that might almost work, if it wasn't for the fact that there are loads of examples in the films, shorts and TV series of Toothless either taking the lead or outright fending for himself. He's not dependant on Hiccup for anything other than flight and the occasional Magic of Friendship speech.
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However, even Bewilderbeast mind-control was able to be resisted by Toothless, as we saw, and Valka might have been able to bring back Cloudjumper using a special method too - given her expertise with dragons, even though she hadn't seen Bewilderbeast mind-control before
Point of order: I'm pretty sure that Valka must have seen Bewilderbeast mind-control before, or she wouldn't know that the baby dragons answer to no one.

Getting back towards the main point, it's rather bizarre that Valka doesn't do anything to snap Cloudjumper out of mind-control. Two dragons would surely be more useful than one, especially since she's clearly not doing anything else. On the other hand, whenever I'm watching that bit, I'm always so grateful for every precious second that she's not on screen that this issue doesn't bother me. With that said, it's still bad writing.
Number of times I've watched the trailer: 18.

My pet peeve: people who refer to complete strangers by their first name. The correct ways to refer to a "John Smith" whom you have never met are Smith, Mr Smith, or John Smith. Not "John". He's not your buddy.
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