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Have we all forgotten...
Topic Started: 28 Sep 2015, 13:14 (787 Views)
thenightandthefury
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Gronckle

The whispering death x Toothless rivalry? It seemed as though there was real potential there for a story-line, especially since the whispering death had a night fury bite on it... But so far, that is left unexplained and I am like... "Will we ever get answers?" Anyone else feel this way about this or any other issue left unresolved anywhere in HTTYD?
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TheBlackFluffyThing
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Terrible Terror

that Alvin trained a Whispering Death at the end of Riders of Berk?

The idea that the Outcasts might learn to train Dragons too, so they could attack Berk more effectively had so much potential. But the creators just dropped it and we only got some Whispering Death eggs on Berk instead.

And there's one other thing that always felt wrong to me and that's Alvin turning good all of a sudden. I always hoped for some kind of plot-twist, where he admits that he only helped the Berkians, because he wanted to get rid of Dagur as well.
It just felt weird that he changed his mind from "Must destroy Berk" to "Let's be friends" so fast.


Night Fury: The unholy offspring of lightning and death itself.
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Rhonin
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thenightandthefury
28 Sep 2015, 17:14
The whispering death x Toothless rivalry? It seemed as though there was real potential there for a story-line, especially since the whispering death had a night fury bite on it... But so far, that is left unexplained and I am like... "Will we ever get answers?" Anyone else feel this way about this or any other issue left unresolved anywhere in HTTYD?
That ended with Toothless defeating it and it leaving. Since Toothless can't talk I doubt we will ever learn why they fought.
TheBlackFluffyThing
28 Sep 2015, 21:04
that Alvin trained a Whispering Death at the end of Riders of Berk?
There's more to training a dragon than just bonding with it.
Quote:
 
The idea that the Outcasts might learn to train Dragons too, so they could attack Berk more effectively had so much potential. But the creators just dropped it and we only got some Whispering Death eggs on Berk instead.
And those Changewings they unleashed, but they were more of a distraction. And here is the crux of the issue, Alvin, and by extension the Outcasts, view dragons as only weapons. Their dragon training will always be hampered by that, and the fact that they know very little about it.
Quote:
 
And there's one other thing that always felt wrong to me and that's Alvin turning good all of a sudden. I always hoped for some kind of plot-twist, where he admits that he only helped the Berkians, because he wanted to get rid of Dagur as well.
It just felt weird that he changed his mind from "Must destroy Berk" to "Let's be friends" so fast.
We don't know what Alvin was thinking when he allied with Berk, most likely to regain control of the Outcasts, which he succeed. And I see it more like a ceasefire than friendship. Also it is possible Alvin will turn on Berk, he is called "the Treacherous" after all, and if the events in Rise of Berk are any indication that will happen eventually.
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TheBlackFluffyThing
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Rhonin
29 Sep 2015, 07:19
thenightandthefury
28 Sep 2015, 17:14
The whispering death x Toothless rivalry? It seemed as though there was real potential there for a story-line, especially since the whispering death had a night fury bite on it... But so far, that is left unexplained and I am like... "Will we ever get answers?" Anyone else feel this way about this or any other issue left unresolved anywhere in HTTYD?
That ended with Toothless defeating it and it leaving. Since Toothless can't talk I doubt we will ever learn why they fought.
TheBlackFluffyThing
28 Sep 2015, 21:04
that Alvin trained a Whispering Death at the end of Riders of Berk?
There's more to training a dragon than just bonding with it.
Quote:
 
The idea that the Outcasts might learn to train Dragons too, so they could attack Berk more effectively had so much potential. But the creators just dropped it and we only got some Whispering Death eggs on Berk instead.
And those Changewings they unleashed, but they were more of a distraction. And here is the crux of the issue, Alvin, and by extension the Outcasts, view dragons as only weapons. Their dragon training will always be hampered by that, and the fact that they know very little about it.
Quote:
 
And there's one other thing that always felt wrong to me and that's Alvin turning good all of a sudden. I always hoped for some kind of plot-twist, where he admits that he only helped the Berkians, because he wanted to get rid of Dagur as well.
It just felt weird that he changed his mind from "Must destroy Berk" to "Let's be friends" so fast.
We don't know what Alvin was thinking when he allied with Berk, most likely to regain control of the Outcasts, which he succeed. And I see it more like a ceasefire than friendship. Also it is possible Alvin will turn on Berk, he is called "the Treacherous" after all, and if the events in Rise of Berk are any indication that will happen eventually.
So you made some solid Points but:

1. Doesn't bonding with a dragon mean that you have to respect the dragon as a creature with a mind on it's own and not see it as just some kind of weapon?
Because we've seen Hiccup bond with and train dragons, we've seen Alvin bond with a dragon and we've seen Drago "training" his dragons. And Alvin's approach to the Whispering Death shares more similarities with Hiccup's way of training dragons.

2. Yes, the Outcasts know very little about dragon training. So did Hiccup at the beginning of the first movie. He learned to train dragons, wo why shouldn't the Outcasts be able to learn it too?

3. Seeing dragons only as some kind of weapon, doesn't make dragon training impossible. Drago had little to no respect for his dragons and yet he was able to control a Bewilderbeast and lead a huge dragon army.

4. Of course it's possible that Alvin might turn his back on Berk again, but we've been through 13 episodes of RttE and it wasn't even mentioned what he's doing or where he's living at that time. Because of that I highly doubt that we'll ever hear from him again.
And Rise of Berk isn't really canon to the movies or TV series. It's a mobile game that took HTTYD 2's story and change it slightly so that it works for the game. And introducing Alvin in Battle Mode makes sense, because Battle Mode is available when you have one Level 12 dragon, while the other possible Battle Mode enemy, Drago, enters the story at a later point.
But on the other they also could've used Dagur for Battle Mode. I wonder why they didn't.


Night Fury: The unholy offspring of lightning and death itself.
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Demonwolf002
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TheBlackFluffyThing
 
1. Doesn't bonding with a dragon mean that you have to respect the dragon as a creature with a mind on it's own and not see it as just some kind of weapon?
Because we've seen Hiccup bond with and train dragons, we've seen Alvin bond with a dragon and we've seen Drago "training" his dragons. And Alvin's approach to the Whispering Death shares more similarities with Hiccup's way of training dragons.
Just because Alvin uses similar methods to Hiccup still doesn't mean he respects the dragons in the same way.
TheBlackFluffyThing
 
The idea that the Outcasts might learn to train Dragons too, so they could attack Berk more effectively had so much potential. But the creators just dropped it and we only got some Whispering Death eggs on Berk instead
With that said I do agree with this point you made. It did seem like we were going to get the Outcasts working more closely with dragons to take on Berk considering the ending we got from the two part season one ending. It also seemed we were going to have Alvin and Mildew working together as well. But all we got from that alliance and the possible use of dragons was Mildews knowledge of Berk was used to plant some Whispering Death eggs(and as mentioned before the Changewings). Then one other showing of Mildews supposed help when him, Alvin, and Savage kidnapped Meatlug.(And to be honest you can literally take Mildew out and still enjoy that episode with pretty much no context loss.)

I do think there's a simple answer for why this idea was never really used to it's full potential though. Dagur. He's your reason, if the Outcasts had started to use dragons to attack Berk would the show have been able to introduce Dagur as more of a threat and a worse enemy for Berk than Alvin. In my opinion no they wouldn't have been able to, at least not with the story we were given. I mean armada or no the franchise has already shown that a small group of good dragon riders are able to hold their own even against a somewhat sizable force. So he would've been lackluster in comparison even with the great personality the character had been given.

That's not to say it couldn't have been done, it's just that I feel the show would've needed to change quite a few things in order for Dagur to feel like a greater threat than Alvin with dragons at his command. Otherwise Dagur would had to have been a side threat instead of relegating Alvin and Mildew to that position instead(which after the first episode or so is essentially what they became). Granted this is just my opinion, but I do feel this had at least some hand in essentially dropping the idea of Alvin using dragons and Mildews knowledge of Berk to attack Berk.
See you in the skies Dragon Rider!

The Dragon Root:Thing what I wrote.

Is Toothless Evil? :Me possibly being crazy, but fun.

The BerkCast The HTTYD podcast, you should listen.
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TheBlackFluffyThing
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Demonwolf002
30 Sep 2015, 07:10
TheBlackFluffyThing
 
1. Doesn't bonding with a dragon mean that you have to respect the dragon as a creature with a mind on it's own and not see it as just some kind of weapon?
Because we've seen Hiccup bond with and train dragons, we've seen Alvin bond with a dragon and we've seen Drago "training" his dragons. And Alvin's approach to the Whispering Death shares more similarities with Hiccup's way of training dragons.
Just because Alvin uses similar methods to Hiccup still doesn't mean he respects the dragons in the same way.
TheBlackFluffyThing
 
The idea that the Outcasts might learn to train Dragons too, so they could attack Berk more effectively had so much potential. But the creators just dropped it and we only got some Whispering Death eggs on Berk instead
With that said I do agree with this point you made. It did seem like we were going to get the Outcasts working more closely with dragons to take on Berk considering the ending we got from the two part season one ending. It also seemed we were going to have Alvin and Mildew working together as well. But all we got from that alliance and the possible use of dragons was Mildews knowledge of Berk was used to plant some Whispering Death eggs(and as mentioned before the Changewings). Then one other showing of Mildews supposed help when him, Alvin, and Savage kidnapped Meatlug.(And to be honest you can literally take Mildew out and still enjoy that episode with pretty much no context loss.)

I do think there's a simple answer for why this idea was never really used to it's full potential though. Dagur. He's your reason, if the Outcasts had started to use dragons to attack Berk would the show have been able to introduce Dagur as more of a threat and a worse enemy for Berk than Alvin. In my opinion no they wouldn't have been able to, at least not with the story we were given. I mean armada or no the franchise has already shown that a small group of good dragon riders are able to hold their own even against a somewhat sizable force. So he would've been lackluster in comparison even with the great personality the character had been given.

That's not to say it couldn't have been done, it's just that I feel the show would've needed to change quite a few things in order for Dagur to feel like a greater threat than Alvin with dragons at his command. Otherwise Dagur would had to have been a side threat instead of relegating Alvin and Mildew to that position instead(which after the first episode or so is essentially what they became). Granted this is just my opinion, but I do feel this had at least some hand in essentially dropping the idea of Alvin using dragons and Mildews knowledge of Berk to attack Berk.
Yes, having Alvin as a dragon trainer or something like that really would've forced Dagur to the sidelines. And, in all honesty, Dagur is the more interesting and funny villian out of those two.

But I mainly pointed the whole "dragon-training Outcasts" idea out, because this thread is the place for this "plot Points I would've liked to explore deeper or different to what the series did" stuff.
So, basically, I really don't mind that the writers of the show decided that the story should go another way than the one I expected.

And just because you mentioned Mildew in you post:
Have we all forgotten him?
He didn't join Alvin when he sided with the Berkians, because he still hated dragons. But we never got any information about his whereabouts or what he's doing now.
I wonder if he joined the dragon Trappers who are going to be introduced in RttE.


Night Fury: The unholy offspring of lightning and death itself.
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Demonwolf002
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TheBlackFluffyThing
 
But I mainly pointed the whole "dragon-training Outcasts" idea out, because this thread is the place for this "plot Points I would've liked to explore deeper or different to what the series did" stuff.
So, basically, I really don't mind that the writers of the show decided that the story should go another way than the one I expected.
Sorry I was just chiming in because I felt like there was something I could add, I do that from time to time. :P
I do agree with you though I would have really liked to see more of the story arc of Alvin leading at least a group of riders of his own to. And I also think they could have worked it out story wise for Dagur to still come off as a greater threat if done right as well.
See you in the skies Dragon Rider!

The Dragon Root:Thing what I wrote.

Is Toothless Evil? :Me possibly being crazy, but fun.

The BerkCast The HTTYD podcast, you should listen.
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Skyshear
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Skyshear

TheBlackFluffyThing
28 Sep 2015, 21:04
that Alvin trained a Whispering Death at the end of Riders of Berk?

The idea that the Outcasts might learn to train Dragons too, so they could attack Berk more effectively had so much potential. But the creators just dropped it and we only got some Whispering Death eggs on Berk instead.

And there's one other thing that always felt wrong to me and that's Alvin turning good all of a sudden. I always hoped for some kind of plot-twist, where he admits that he only helped the Berkians, because he wanted to get rid of Dagur as well.
It just felt weird that he changed his mind from "Must destroy Berk" to "Let's be friends" so fast.
Skyshear
 
Yeah i even hope that alvin might try to tame the Screaming Death with the aid of its mother. I would even be surprised if alvin made the whispering or screaming death his tribal crest.
J. L. Polacek
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